Nini Manumua - know her name

[oimissus]

snowy Wrote:

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> oimissus Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > snowy Wrote:

> >

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>

> > -----

> > > From looking at that boysvswomen site it

> > appears

> > > it?s run by an America right wing Christian

> > anti

> > > vaxxer.

> >

> > Do you have anything to say about the actual

> data,

> > or are you just trying to deflect attention

> from

> > that? It's very transparent. Oh, and a source

> for

> > that claim would be good too. Thanks.

>

> I?m not deflecting. You quoted it as a good

> source, so I went to look who was behind the

> source. His twitter feed is illuminating.

Please provide a link to the Twitter feed you're referencing. I've looked at the boysvswomen Twitter feed, not sure what in that feed supports your claim?

Again - nothing to say on the data? Because, as you know, it's the data I was referring to. Are you saying the data is wrong? That the data doesn't support the idea that women need their own, single sex, competitions to compete fairly (and safely, in some cases)?

[oimissus]

tomskip Wrote:

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> I hear you oimissus, although I would agree it is

> inflammatory and probably unwise of you to refer

> to the weight lifter as "he" because then you make

> it too easy for people to shout this is proof you

> are transphobic.

>

> For myself, I find it is inflammatory to refer to

> women as "cis" or "genetic women". Horribly

> offensive. Women and transwomen covers it fine.

>

> The total dismantling of all women's sports is a

> niche subject hmm? who could ever have imagined.

I've been involved in supporting women's and girls' rights long enough to know that 99% of accusations of transphobia simply mean:

"A woman (usually) has said something I don't like! Shut her up!"

"A woman (usually) is drawing attention to something I don't want attention drawn to! Shut her up!"

"A woman (usually) is speaking up for women only, and excluding men! Shut her up!" (this one never aimed at any other group who organize for themselves)

So it's become meaningless. Ditto "hate".

Time for another couple of pictures that say a thousand words. Copyright Tatsuya Ishida.

[snowy]

oimissus Wrote:

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> snowy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > oimissus Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > snowy Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > From looking at that boysvswomen site it

> > > appears

> > > > it?s run by an America right wing Christian

> > > anti

> > > > vaxxer.

> > >

> > > Do you have anything to say about the actual

> > data,

> > > or are you just trying to deflect attention

> > from

> > > that? It's very transparent. Oh, and a source

> > for

> > > that claim would be good too. Thanks.

> >

> > I?m not deflecting. You quoted it as a good

> > source, so I went to look who was behind the

> > source. His twitter feed is illuminating.

>

> Please provide a link to the Twitter feed you're

> referencing. I've looked at the boysvswomen

> Twitter feed, not sure what in that feed supports

> your claim?

>

> Again - nothing to say on the data? Because, as

> you know, it's the data I was referring to. Are

> you saying the data is wrong? That the data

> doesn't support the idea that women need their

> own, single sex, competitions to compete fairly

> (and safely, in some cases)?

It?s on their website.

[oimissus]

Where on their website? I've looked. Here it is again for anyone else who'd care to look (the data is certainly worth a look - the very fact that snowy here is madly deflecting from it, not ,mentioning it at all, tells you there's something worth seeing there). https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Also, you mentioned 'his Twitter feed'? Who's Twitter feed? Can you name this person, link to a tweet? I've looked on the boysvswomen Twitter feed (here, if anyone's interested

) I can't see anything.

[JohnL]

I guess @Snowy means in the "Created & Maintained by"

[oimissus]

JohnL Wrote:

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> I guess @Snowy means in the "Created & Maintained

> by"

Thanks for the clarification, John. For some reason that is blank on the Desktop site, but I can see it on my phone.

The Twitter account is

Not sure why snowy couldn't have just supplied that first time around so that everyone can check it out for themselves. I've had a look at it and while I can see he's a Christian (he's American, so no big surprise) on a quick scan of his most recent tweets I can't see anything that gives me pause - I don't expect to agree with everyone all of the time about everything, but he appears to tweet mainly about this issue, focussing on sports and prisons. Calling him a 'Christian right-wing anti-vaxxer' is just another attempt to smear and deflect.

However - the actual point is the data he is posting. Unless someone can show the data is false I'm not sure why who is collating it is a problem. Unless you don't want people to focus on the data, that is...

[EDguy89]

oimissus Wrote:

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> Everyone still sure Hubbard beat Manumua fair and

> square, because she wasn't good enough?

Yes because Hubbard placed 7th and Manumua placed 14th. Lots of other people got in Manumua's way. Should have lifted harder.

Also, going back to your bit about 99% of conversations boiling down to those few reasons, the whole ""A woman (usually) is speaking up for women only, and excluding men! Shut her up!" (this one never aimed at any other group who organize for themselves)" is why you're a transphobe.

It doesn't have to do with sticking up for women. You're exlcuding transwomen because in your limited worldview you refuse to see them as anyone other than a man parading around as a woman.

Cisgendered women rightfully should be elevated in our communities, but it doesn't mean that transwomen or transmen need to be beaten down as you think is fit to do. You're more exclusive than inclusive.

[fishbiscuits]

I won't use the same terminology as you, EDGuy, as others claim they find "cis" offensive. (And I'm not in total agreement with you on the sporting side). But your closing point is on the money. We can be an ally to both women and transgender people. In fact, we SHOULD!

[tomskip]

Who placed between Manumua at 14th and Hubbard at 7th? Who were the "lots of other people?" Was it 6 women who still got pushed down by competing with a transwoman who has all the indesputabale advantages (in weight lifting at least) of being born male and living with male hormones and muscles and stature and everything else for 40 years?

[oimissus]

I take it, then, EDGuy, that you attack organizations such as Southall Black sisters for not including white people? If not, why not? They're exclusive.

I take it you attack Mermaids for not including non-trans youth? Why not? They're exclusive.

I take it you attack youth groups for not including toddlers or adults? Pregnancy yoga for not including those who aren't pregnant? Save the Children only care about children - we can't have that. World Wildlife Fund only advocates for animals - wrong!

For groups to succeed they need to be focussed. And you're happy for every single other group out there to do that - except women. Women *must* include males to be worthwhile.

NO. You won't silence us, you won't stop us meeting and organizing for ourselves. And you hate that. Too bad.

Did you look at those pictures I posted? They're YOU. Take a good, long hard look at yourself. Anyone who supports a white middle aged man taking the place of a young women of colour is not the nice, kind, progressive person they think they are. They're just a common-or-garden bully.

Well, you won't bully me. I will never shut up, I will never stand aside, I will never stop advocating for women and girls.

Get used to it.

[alice]

I am a woman and you do not advocate for me.

[EDguy89]

Nah you're making too broad of statements.

I wouldn't go after Southall Black Sisters nor Mermaids. Why? Because they're marginalised groups. And yes, more marginalised than women on the whole (ESPECIALLY mermaids since you seem to believe that trans people don't exist. Yet you bring them up to defend your point? Despicable).

You think your group are a bunch of victims. You paint yourself that way, quite literally, in those pictures you posted.

Some meak, weak little person piping up and putting themselves out there just to be beaten down by people mindless screaming about terfs? PLEASE. You put up this innocent little facade of "I'm just sticking up for women" yet time and time again you fail to refer to transwomen as what they are, women. You are literally just as bad as the "other" that you depict in your little pictures.

You see everything in such a binary way that it's probably impossible for you to see this as anything other than man v woman because that's the only thing you've ever seen.

I've taken a good look at myself plenty of times and at the end of the day I look just fine. The fact that you still go on about "white middle aged man" when you, time and time again, deny a person's existence.

But yeah, tell me about how I'm a bully.

I advocate for women and girls myself, too, but unlike you I don't draw the arbitrary line at "had to be born with a vagina".

Tell yourself how strong and courageous you are all you want, at the end of the day you're still wrong.

Get used to it.

[TheCat]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

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> I won't use the same terminology as you, EDGuy, as

> others claim they find "cis" offensive. (And I'm

> not in total agreement with you on the sporting

> side). But your closing point is on the money. We

> can be an ally to both women and transgender

> people. In fact, we SHOULD!

Just to be clear....I know I was openly winding up earlier....but I don't find 'cis' offensive. I find it a little annoying, but not enough to have a real problem. I see why misgendering is upsetting for some transspeople....but perhaps being aware that a transition is not something a lot of people have direct exposure too, we shouldn't be so quite to dismissive people who do things like 'deadname'.......

I know a few trans people. And the ones I know are reasonable, and get that it's a tough thing for others to take...so try not to be too reactionary. Seems a bit different to the trans activist mindset, which has no flexibility.

As a analogous example......I have a son with ADHD and ASD, but the amount of jokes or misunderstanding about autism is constant from a wide range of people. I don't think those people are 'hateful'......it's annoying, but do I really think they are trying to be offensive or hateful?....no way.....

[fishbiscuits]

TheCat Wrote:

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> Just to be clear....I know I was openly winding up

> earlier....but I don't find 'cis' offensive. I

> find it a little annoying, but not enough to have

> a real problem.

It's cool. Yeah you made it clear you were intentionally provoking, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe on my side, I maybe struggled to articulate my intentions. Of course in the majority of conversations, I refer to women as women, I don't go around using words like "cisgender" on a daily basis! It is usually an unnecessary detail, tbh.

But honestly, I think misgendering is distressing to ALL transgender people. Sometimes it comes from a place of misunderstanding, or simply spur-of-the-moment panic - and that is upsetting, but understandable and forgivable. But sometimes it comes from malice and intolerance... sometimes it is intentional. I think we are both smart enough to know the difference. The latter category, in my opinion, is as bad as calling women the 'b' word, or a gay person the 'f' word.

With the analogy with your son, I would say the same thing really. You're smart enough to know the difference between misunderstanding/ignorance, and setting out to deliberately confront and offend. I know which one we're dealing with here.

[oimissus]

Great news! Mini Manumua has been granted a wild card entry and will be going to the Olympics! The IWF have granted her a tripartite place.

See you in Tokyo, Nini!