Nini Manumua - know her name

[JohnL]

I believe this is a world issue rather than a UK issue. Al the free world countries will eventually (some quicker than others) head in the same direction.

As usual the USA will lead in how to resolve.

[oimissus]

No - the US are up to their neck in this with ever-growing numbers of clinics dedicated to medicalizing children's personalities and wrecking their bodies (plenty of $$$$s to be made from turning children into lifelong patients). Biden and Harris have made it clear they will support self ID come what may and never-no-mind the cost to women and girls. Some very brave girls and young women are touring the US discussing the sport issue but the Democrats aren't interested. Canada is even worse.

WE are leading the way. Why do you think the TRAs call us TERF Island? There may be precious little good to be said about the Tories but Liz Truss and Kemi Badenoch know exactly what's what here, certainly far more so than most of Labour, even the women MPs (honourable exception: Rosie Duffield) - even Jess Phillips won't stick her neck out and as for H Harman... The Lords are also doing good work - Baroness Nicholson, Lord Philip Hunt, Baroness Grey-Thompson, Baroness Fox. This is a cross-party issue and the Lords seem to have a better handle on working in that way than the Commons.

[fishbiscuits]

SpringTime Wrote:

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> If there's an agenda then what's wrong with it?

The agenda is quite obviously a vicious anti-transgender one. Very thinly veiled as a post about sports.

It would have been possible to respectfully debate the complexities of transgender athletes, but the OP has not gone that route.

- "I won't name that person"... as if she is some sort of despicable criminal

- intentionally avoid using female pronoun

- "medicalizing children's personalities and wrecking their bodies"

- OP's previous history of making VERY one-sided claims about transgender prison inmates

[fishbiscuits]

SpringTime Wrote:

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> Like JohnL says there should simply be another category.

If sport was awash with trans competitors, I would agree. Especially if the results were clearly skewed in their favour. But as things stand, this simply isn't the case. It's rather a niche issue which has attracted a disproportionate reaction.

If there was a trans category for Tokyo, it would contain ONE athlete (or two if you include the American BMXer). So not really a practical suggestion at this point in time.

I am not saying that everyone should unquestioningly accept Laurel Hubbard as a female competitor. I do actually understand the concern. But I think we need constructive, respectful solutions. Such as inviting trans athletes to participate on an honorary basis alongside genetic females, but excluded from overall medal tally (or maybe create an extra medal position). Or perhaps a calibration based on her performance prior to transition. I don't know. I really don't have the answers. It's hugely complex and I think in the future we'll need nuanced solutions, but I don't think they should involve hyperbole and derogatory language.

[oimissus]

Mate, all you're doing there is showing your own inability to give a damn about women and girls, and your increasingly desperate attempts to shut me up.

It's actually very instructive.

I'm happy to leave it to those reading to look into what's been said and perhaps research further if they're so inclined.

[fishbiscuits]

I'm not trying to shut you up. It's the lounge. Say whatever you want.

I am merely providing a counterpoint to your bigoted views.

[JohnL]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> SpringTime Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Like JohnL says there should simply be another

> category.

>

> If sport was awash with trans competitors, I would

> agree. Especially if the results were clearly

> skewed in their favour. But as things stand, this

> simply isn't the case. It's rather a niche issue

> which has attracted a disproportionate reaction.

>

> If there was a trans category for Tokyo, it would

> contain ONE athlete (or two if you include the

> American BMXer). So not really a practical

> suggestion at this point in time.

>

> I am not saying that everyone should

> unquestioningly accept Laurel Hubbard as a female

> competitor. I do actually understand the concern.

> But I think we need constructive, respectful

> solutions. Such as inviting trans athletes to

> participate on an honorary basis alongside genetic

> females, but excluded from overall medal tally (or

> maybe create an extra medal position). Or perhaps

> a calibration based on her performance prior to

> transition. I don't know. I really don't have the

> answers. It's hugely complex and I think in the

> future we'll need nuanced solutions, but I don't

> think they should involve hyperbole and derogatory

> language.

I'm not suggesting a Trans section but more a segregation according to ability/strength - I don't know how this would work as it's only the beginnings of an idea and I know that could be accused of taking the competitivity out of it as we once did in schools (there are no winners only competitors) - but the Olympics is failing in my view anyway and I thought I'd hate the Paralympics and it's sections .. but actually I prefer it to the main Olympics - it actually does work in terms of the viewer.

[fishbiscuits]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not suggesting a Trans section but more a

> segregation according to ability/strength - I

> don't know how this would work as it's only the

> beginnings of an idea and I know that could be

> accused of taking the competitivity out of it as

> we once did in schools (there are no winners only

> competitors) - but the Olympics is failing in my

> view anyway and I thought I'd hate the Paralympics

> and it's sections .. but actually I prefer it to

> the main Olympics - it actually does work in terms

> of the viewer.

Yes certainly if trans Olympians become commonplace and there is a demonstrable statistical skew in the results, then something will need to be done to ensure fair competition. Some form of calibration perhaps.

[oimissus]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not trying to shut you up. It's the lounge.

> Say whatever you want.

>

> I am merely providing a counterpoint to your

> bigoted views.

Only you're not. You haven't actually engaged with a single thing I've said, other that to lie and claim that I've said things I haven't, and call basic facts, all verifiable, bigotry.

You're nothing new or original, I've seen it all before, the insults, the shutting down of debate, the refusal to actually engage with the substance of what's being said, the deflection.

You just don't think it matters when a woman gets cheated out of her place. You call it niche because it's happening on the other side of the world and because you have no idea of the scale of it (Hubbard isn't the only man who's cheated a woman out of her place at the Tokyo Olympics, and the Olympics aren't the only sporting competition out there) - though any decent person knows that one woman cheated in this way is one woman too many.

So we have here why this issue never gets raised on the EDF - the thread has been taken over by someone who, by their own admission, knows and cares little about the issue at hand but is going to share his pearls of wisdom anyway, and someone who doesn't want the conversation to happen at all, so tries to end it with insults but no actual argument.

[fishbiscuits]

Wow.

"a man who's cheated a woman out of her place".

[oimissus]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

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> Wow.

>

> "a man who's cheated a woman out of her place".

Yes, it's really shocking, isn't it? When you strip out the obfuscating verbiage that's what you're left with. He's already cheated 3 women out of medal positions at the Pacific Games. Luckily NZ are getting a lot of global condemnation for this, it's really waking people up to the reality of the situation (despite the writing being on the wall for years), lots of former Olympians speaking out and even Jacinda Ardem only gave muted endorsement for this.

One of those occasions where a picture says a thousand words.

[fishbiscuits]

It's called misgendering. It's an incredibly insulting thing to say to/about someone who's transitioned.

[oimissus]

More insulting than that male cheating a woman out of her rightful place on the team?

No.

Hubbard has done nothing to earn my respect, in fact he's done everything possible to lose it. So he doesn't get it. I couldn't care less what he's done to himself in terms of medication and surgery - a man who takes hormones and has surgery is still a man. If that man is a decent person I might go along with his delusion to make him feel better about himself. But this man? No.

Lying is obscuring what is going on here. I will not be a part of that. You can do what you please and tell yourself you're doing the right thing, but you don't get to force that on anyone else.

Interesting that you don't care about Nini Manumua losing her place, in part because this is happening in NZ, in a slightly obscure sport ('niche', as you keep saying), but at the same time you care about me misgendering Hubbard. Why might that be? What's the difference between these two lifters? Why is one worthy of respect and one not? Answers on a postcard...

[fishbiscuits]

Knowing full well how upsetting your language will be to any trans person who happens to read this, you continue. You actually double down.

Was it really not possible to debate this perfectly valid subject, without these sweeping insults to all trans people?

[diable rouge]

''I might go along with his delusion...''

There's the prejudice right there in a nutshell.

Forget about weightlifters from New Zealand, this is all about someone who will never accept that any male or female who transitions to the opposite sex, should be acknowledged as such...

[fishbiscuits]

Yes... true colours shown eventually.

[oimissus]

No - just facts. It is not possible for anyone to change sex. 'Woman' is not a costume to be put on by a man who's struggling with manhood. Perhaps if more men helped those men fewer would need to medicate themselves and have surgery. But instead you expect women to be the support humans for those men, and you really don't like it when women say 'no. no more.'

And of course you want to forget Hubbard - because Hubbard is waking everyone up to the facts and you can't have that, can you? You know that everyone can see how incredibly unfair this situation is and people are starting to join the dots (including people who have DM'd me following my posts, thanking me for speaking up).

And, yet again, not a single shred of sympathy for the women getting trampled all over. Not a second's thought spared for them. No idea that women might be reading your words in despair.

Nini Manumua. Know her name.

[diable rouge]

Periodic reminder:

Writing the word fact doesn't make something factual...

[oimissus]

So are you saying that it's possible for a human to change sex? How? A woman is an adult human female. It's not possible for an adult human male to become female. Taking female hormones and having surgery doesn't make a man a woman.

So please - enlighten me (and everyone else who's reading) how what I've said - that no-one can change sex - isn't factual and true.

[fishbiscuits]

Two separate issues.

1) Is it OK for MTF trans athletes to compete against women? Many people would say no, and that's fine. I get it.

2) Is it OK to intentionally call trans women "men", "he", etc. Accuse them of being delusional. To call trans athletes "cheats". No. It's now bordering on hate speech.

[JohnL]

You have varying degrees of masculine and feminine in everybody, whether you call that sex or gender is only nomenclature and language - names we make up for things.

We just have to make ways of dealing with the issues that causes as a society (space, competition, the right to be addressed in a certain way, how the police deal with you etc.).

[JohnL]

What I'm saying is we have a set of problems in front of us - why not just solve them as problems.

[EDguy89]

oimissus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hubbard has done nothing to earn my respect, in

> fact he's done everything possible to lose it. So

> he doesn't get it. I couldn't care less what he's

> done to himself in terms of medication and surgery

> - a man who takes hormones and has surgery is

> still a man. If that man is a decent person I

> might go along with his delusion to make him feel

> better about himself. But this man? No.

You're trash. Your beliefs are trash. Hubbard is not a man and your refusal to refer to her as "she" is indicative of your disgusting transphobia. Likely also indicative of your disgusting personality.

You're not a hero. You're not some brave soul standing up for something. The "people" DMing you and thanking you for this? They're just as bad as you are, but they're also cowards. That is, if these DMs even existed in the first place. Trash tends to ooze lots of foul-smelling nonsense.

Nini didn't qualify because she wasn't good enough. Plain and simple. Hubbard also likely won't win any medals at the olympics because she isn't as good as the top contenders. Surely if trans women were so dangerous Hubbard would win gold every time, right? Since that IS the argument. Trans women are just built different, aren't they? Better than cisgendered women in every way, shape, and form. Oh wait, but Hubbard ISN'T number 1. Because all that garbage ISN'T TRUE.

We shouldn't have to sit here and tolerate your intolerance.

In the same way that your refuse to refer to Hubbard as a woman, I'll make sure to come back to this thread over and over to refuse to refer to you as "human". I'll use "trash" in human's stead.

That's not a really nice thing to do, is it? Especially since you'd probably refer to yourself as a human. Time to determine whether you're "human" or "trash". Do the right thing (and it is the right thing) and call Hubbard a she.

Because she is a woman despite your protest.

[oimissus]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Two separate issues.

> 1) Is it OK for MTF trans athletes to compete

> against women? Many people would say no, and

> that's fine. I get it.

> 2) Is it OK to intentionally call trans women

> "men", "he", etc. Accuse them of being delusional.

> To call trans athletes "cheats". No. It's now

> bordering on hate speech.

The problem is is that not doing 2 leads to 1 happening. Which is what we are seeing here.

I've been paying close attention to this debate since the IOC changed its rules in 2015. As many did, I started off 'being kind'. But the more I read and understood, the more I realised that if you ever say it's fine for someone male to call themselves female, you end up with the situations that are real and happening that I have described - men claiming to be women to enter the women's prison estate, men entering women's sporting competition.

There is no way for a woman or a girl to tell if the male person in front of her in the communal changing room at, say, Camberwell pool, is 1. a transsexual (ie full surgery), 2. transgender (no surgery, which accounts for about 85% of those who identify as trans) or 3. someone posing as 1 or 2 for nefarious reasons. No way. So the only way to preserve women's and girls' privacy, dignity and safety (if you think those things are worth preserving, which most decent people do) is to say 'no male people in the women's changing room'. And you come up with a different solution - more mixed sex facilities or even men not beating up other men in the men's changing room.

So now we ask ourselves, yes, more mixed changing rooms, alongside single sex is a good idea - why don't we do that? (or have a third category in sports compeitions?) And that can be answered by referring to the charming poster EDGuy89. Nothing but complete capitulation is acceptable. No compromise because that would mean women not validating male identities and that's what women are there for.

I'm not going to report that poster because that post is highly instructive. Because I've seen that kind of post time and again from the 'just be kind' brigade - they're the ones posing with the baseball bats in trans colours and the blood stained T shirts saying 'I punch terfs'. They're the ones sending death threats to women who campaign solely for women (though no-one, and certainly no woman, attacks trans people who campaign solely for trans people - again, women must include everyone, though everyone else can exclude women no bother). And the thing is - no one calls that 'hate'. Because despising women is so ingrained in our society that no one sees it anymore.

[EDguy89]

Your entire point about changing rooms is so tired.

Do you honestly believe that transwomen transitioned solely to pray on cisgendered women in changing rooms? Do you really think that's the pinnacle of what transitioning is all about.

Look, if a man wanted to go into a changing room and sexually assault women, transitioning to a woman is a really roundabout way of doing it.

The reality that you reject is that people can transition. We talk and talk about men faking transitions to women for nefarious purposes, but if the reason people transition is to assault women, then why do women transition to be men? Why do transmen exist? Is it because that's the only way for women to sexually assault men in a changing room?

Probably not. Again, the reality is that people transition because they, in themselves, are not a man for example.

If biology is the sole factor of determining gender, then what happens when a woman has a hysterectomy? The parts are gone, so therefore she isn't a woman? Sounds wrong.

Or, if I lost my penis in an accident, would I no longer be a man? Nah, probably not.

The parts you were born with are not prescriptive of who you are as a woman.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find that people who advocate for trans rights would advocate against woman's rights. Feminism as a concept exists to get all people to the same level.

Of course people exist who just want to stomp on terfs, but likewise, as is with the case with you. There are people who exist who refuse to believe that transwomen or transmen exist.

And in that regard, you might as well be stomping on them.