Zero tolerance of racism and hate crime in sport

[heartblock]

I?ll leave it to...

[DuncanW]

Cat - I don't think you're a racist or a troll. It seems like you have put quite a lot of thought into this, but now seem to be contorting to defend an entrenched position you don't really believe in yourself.

I get thet you don't like the taking of the knee and don't think it's the best way to protest against racism. I think that's fair enough - you're entitled to that view. I also have reservations about it as the best form of protest, but for different reasons, and perhaps not so deeply held as you. For me, it started as a protest by sports people in the US who were refusing to stand for their national anthem before fixtures. As I understand it, players (initially Kaepernick) felt they couldn't stand for the anthem of a state that was systemically brutalising and killing black people. He had initially remained seated, but an ex marine suggested to him that just looked lazy/disengaged and suggested kneeling.

Thankfully we don't have police regularly killing black citizens here. We also don't play a national anthem before matches, so to me it feels a bit misplaced in some ways. Some black players don't like it also - Wilf Zaha has declined to do it and says that he shouldn't have to kneel in order not to be racially abused. These are all viewpoints of people who are against racism. They're all valid I guess.

But for me, as long as the players themselves feel this is the way they wish to further their cause against this vile abuse they are subjected to, as well as the wider racism in society, they have my full support. It doesn't matter if I think it's the best way or not - I don't have agency in the matter and I don't have skin in the game. I simply have the binary choice to show support or not.

Why would you not take the same psoition?

[Sephiroth]

great post Duncan

Interesting to see several prominent conservative MPs and commentators (Johnny Mercer, Steve Baker, Danny Finkelstein in the Times) all being very clear the government is wrong on this issue

[TheCat]

DuncanW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cat - I don't think you're a racist or a troll. It

> seems like you have put quite a lot of thought

> into this, but now seem to be contorting to defend

> an entrenched position you don't really believe in

> yourself.

>

> I get thet you don't like the taking of the knee

> and don't think it's the best way to protest

> against racism. I think that's fair enough -

> you're entitled to that view. I also have

> reservations about it as the best form of protest,

> but for different reasons, and perhaps not so

> deeply held as you. For me, it started as a

> protest by sports people in the US who were

> refusing to stand for their national anthem before

> fixtures. As I understand it, players (initially

> Kaepernick) felt they couldn't stand for the

> anthem of a state that was systemically

> brutalising and killing black people. He had

> initially remained seated, but an ex marine

> suggested to him that just looked lazy/disengaged

> and suggested kneeling.

>

> Thankfully we don't have police regularly killing

> black citizens here. We also don't play a national

> anthem before matches, so to me it feels a bit

> misplaced in some ways. Some black players don't

> like it also - Wilf Zaha has declined to do it and

> says that he shouldn't have to kneel in order not

> to be racially abused. These are all viewpoints of

> people who are against racism. They're all valid I

> guess.

>

> But for me, as long as the players themselves feel

> this is the way they wish to further their cause

> against this vile abuse they are subjected to, as

> well as the wider racism in society, they have my

> full support. It doesn't matter if I think it's

> the best way or not - I don't have agency in the

> matter and I don't have skin in the game. I simply

> have the binary choice to show support or not.

>

> Why would you not take the same psoition?

A very well articulated and considered post Dunc. And certainly gave me some things to think about when I read it earlier this morning.

So...I think its fair to say I've been guilty of conflating various issues myself (i.e. football team knee taking and my broader issues with CRT/BLM) in some of the posts I've made on this thread.

My original starting position (which I maintain), is that I wouldn't boo the football team if they wanted to take the knee. They've clarified what they believe it represents and why they're doing it, and while my own personal view probably stops short of 'support' of the action, im supportive of their goals. So all in all...I pretty ambivalent about whether they take the knee or not.

The reason I actually started posting on this thread was more to pushback on some of the commentary on here which equated people not liking the knee with automatically being racists. I simply wanted to make the point that just because one might not like taking the knee doesn't nessarily imply that they are racists. I was originally just trying to convey that some people may not view the knee as the simplistic gesture against racisms which the English team obviously believe it represents....and therefore perhaps some people shouldn't be so quick to judge (and brand) those who are not supportive.

Probably fair to say from that point, my comments (and the broader discussion) become a little more diluted across various related issues, and that message may have been lost as my views on CRT (which I guininely think is a pernicious, and very dangerous concept, which will achieve the opposite of what many people would hope it does - but more on that another time!) more broadly 'bled' into this specific issue on English football team knee taking.

So lets call that half a mea culpa, and half a clarification:)

[Sephiroth]

This thread has been interesting to watch develop - leaving aside the topic itself, many of The Usual Suspects (myself included) have been involved, often saying things one would expect to hear, sometimes forcefully so

And yet this time things haven't spilled over into slanging matches* (again I hold my hand up - in my defence, I'm usually right ;-) ) and people have had space to consider and reconsider

It's better than usual is what I'm saying

* I'm generalising a bit . Cat, for example has directly been called a troll - but in fairness to that poster (j.a., one of my current forum faves) , it reads to me like they have more direct involvement in this subject than many of us and I can see why they would be so upset

[malumbu]

Slightly off at a tangent, some of this discussion is about footballers taking the knee. James McClean, an Irish footballer, refused to wear the poppy for remembrance day. He had valid reasons for not doing this. And got grief in grounds and on social media, including his own supporters. Indicative of both ignorance of the politics and some nasty sides of nationalism expressed by many football fans (and no doubt representative of many in a conservative (small c) country)

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/why-james-mcclean-doesn-t-wear-poppy-west-brom-remembrance-poppy-appeal-a8037391.html

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This thread has been interesting to watch develop

> - leaving aside the topic itself, many of The

> Usual Suspects (myself included) have been

> involved, often saying things one would expect to

> hear, sometimes forcefully so

>

> And yet this time things haven't spilled over into

> slanging matches* (again I hold my hand up - in my

> defence, I'm usually right ;-) ) and people have

> had space to consider and reconsider

>

> It's better than usual is what I'm saying

>

> * I'm generalising a bit . Cat, for example has

> directly been called a troll - but in fairness to

> that poster (j.a., one of my current forum faves)

> , it reads to me like they have more direct

> involvement in this subject than many of us and I

> can see why they would be so upset

Agreed.

I think we all need to remember that with the exception of some very obvious trolls...most of the usual suspects on here are well intentioned people (yes, even me). These are emotive topics, so trying to understand someone's perspective, rather than assuming or labelling invariably promotes a more fruitful discussion.

oh, i've gone all warm and fuzzy.

it wont last:)

[j.a.]

@Cat

On this subject, I feel this is basically you being described here...(MLK quote, that is)

As Sephiroth says, yes I do have direct involvement in this. My wife still gets called a nigger outside London for example. I have extremely strong feelings on the subject and I frankly don't have time for what I believe to be people - any people - telling black people *how* they are comfortable with anti-racism being done. (Edited to make this clear - CRT and certain aspects of the BLM movement are definitely problematic and should be closely examined, though I'd throw in the caveat that the Black Panthers were seen in the same light and with hindsight we can see that they were an understandable reaction to gross racial abuses by the US authorities. While I utterly reject 'defund the police' for example, I can see how black people are tired of being shot.)

SO this isn't CRT being discussed - where as I say you might be surprised to hear that we would likely agree - but basic empathy for people who have to endure...well, you've surely seen what happened since the penalty shoot-out?!

I was amazed (though I'm not sure why, he's a good person) to see the force of Johnny Mercer MP's thoughts on the subject, and I think people should take them on board.

Yeah, I have *very* strong feelings on this subject. I'm not about to apologise for that. I try to be a reasonable human being and see both sides of arguments but at this stage in my life enough is enough. I need to hand a better world to my mixed race children.

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Interesting you should choose to use an image of

> MLK (as an side lets conveniently ignore the fact

> that this is well known photo of him leading a

> prayer, not participating in an act of 'taking the

> knee' for its own sake)....

Well, MLK's daughter said her father knelt both in prayer and protest, she also equates 'taking the knee' with her father's method of protest, a peaceful yet powerful way to express, so I'm gonna roll with her on that one.

But the main point of the photo was exactly what I stated, being on the right side of history.

MLK was dismissed as an outsider, an agitator, a communist etc.

I could've equally posted a pic of Mandela, who again was similarly dismissed as being a Marxist and a terrorist (remember seeing Young Conservatives wearing ''Hang Nelson Mandela'' T-shirts as a riposte to the ''Free Nelson Mandela'' campaign).

Yet here we are again, the same Marxist deflectionary tropes and the common theme of white people telling the victims of racism how they should react to that racism.

Time has proven that both MLK and NM were on the right side of history, and I believe the same will be said of the footballers...

[JohnL]

Pritti Patel up in the Commons next.

Doubt we'll get anywhere but you never know.

Edit: she's backed out it seems.

[JohnL]

Victoria Atkins replaced her.

Not really much but the Tories are gradually trying to change their emphasis I think.

[heartblock]

White establishment - taking the knee is a political statement

Black footballers who have been racially abused - taking the knee is an anti-racist statement

Mmmmmhhh which one should I believe will be the right side of history, as an anti-racist.

[alex_b]

I think even talking about it as ?taking the knee? is framing it in the language of the right wing culture warriors who if not racist are at least racist adjacent. Kneeling or sitting in protest has a long long tradition far before BLM or CRT or even Marxism. Kapernick seems to have talked about kneeling as a mark of respect (as in soldiers kneeling at graves) and protest to be distinct from just sitting out the anthem. ?Taking A knee? has historic use in the US in the sense of kneeing as a sign of respectful remembrance going back to at least the 60s. The use of ?taking THE knee? being more dominant seems to be a UK media thing that has a more Game of Thrones submissive context to it.

[TheCat]

"racist adjacent" FFS.

Sorry Alex, you may not have meant much by it, but this need to seemingly 'label' everyone as something is infuriating, and realistically any label with the word 'racist' in it is just openly antagonistic.

[TheCat]

heartblock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> White establishment - taking the knee is a

> political statement

> Black footballers who have been racially abused -

> taking the knee is an anti-racist statement

>

>

> Mmmmmhhh which one should I believe will be the

> right side of history, as an anti-racist.

Different things can mean different things to different people. Once again trying to overly simplify a complex issue to a binary.

Some black footballers like taking the knee, some black footballers dont...they're both black...how will you decide which black man you will cast as being 'right side of history' or not? Perhaps some questions cant be answered by first asking what someone's skin colour is.

[alex_b]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "racist adjacent" FFS.

>

> Sorry Alex, you may not have meant much by it, but

> this need to seemingly 'label' everyone as

> something is infuriating, and realistically any

> label with the word 'racist' in it is just openly

> antagonistic.

I was thinking specifically of Patel and other members of the Tory front bench. I don?t think they?re racist per se, but I do think they benefit from playing to a base who are actively racist. It was also framed in the context of the right wing culture warriors who I think if not racist are at best indifferent to the racist effects of clamping down on talking critically about our history.

[TheCat]

alex_b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "racist adjacent" FFS.

> >

> > Sorry Alex, you may not have meant much by it,

> but

> > this need to seemingly 'label' everyone as

> > something is infuriating, and realistically any

> > label with the word 'racist' in it is just

> openly

> > antagonistic.

>

> I was thinking specifically of Patel and other

> members of the Tory front bench. I don?t think

> they?re racist per se, but I do think they benefit

> from playing to a base who are actively racist. It

> was also framed in the context of the right wing

> culture warriors who I think if not racist are at

> best indifferent to the racist effects of clamping

> down on talking critically about our history.

Fair enough. But again, I think a term like 'right wing culture warrior' can span a very wide gambit, and is often used to label anyone who disagrees with anything written in the Graun (I jest, but you get the point)....so, for example, you probably wouldn't put someone who disagrees with the Glaswegian teacher 'cancelling' To Kill a Mockingbird from his curriculum in the same bucket as someone who pops along to a Britain First meeting....

[Sephiroth]

Blimey - even the horror that is Toby Young has recanted (only up to a point of course)

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/in-defence-of-footballers-taking-the-knee

"Before the television presenter Guto Harri took the knee live on air ? which cost him his job at GB News last week ? he explained that his understanding of the gesture had changed. Having initially thought of it as political with a capital ?p?, he now realised that in the eyes of most people, including England?s young football players, it is simply a way of expressing your opposition to racism, as well as solidarity with its victims. It is not an expression of support for the Black Lives Matter organisation or its more controversial aims.

In retrospect, that seems pretty obvious. Professional footballers, who tend to be multi-millionaires, drive expensive cars and have young children, do not want to end capitalism, defund the police or dismantle the nuclear family. But like Guto, I had difficulty getting past my initial reaction to seeing them taking the knee because in my mind the gesture is linked to BLM ? an impression reinforced by Premier League players wearing BLM badges on their shirts last year and football clubs unfurling huge banners in their stadiums saying ?Black Lives Matter?. However, I now accept that when players start taking the knee again in a few weeks? time ? the first Championship game is on 6 August ? it will not be because they?re rabid neo-Marxists."

[fishbiscuits]

If these people have to wait for a groundswell of public opinion before they realise that racism is bad, there isn't really much hope for them is there?

[malumbu]

Following the lack of substance of his speech today I have just offered the PM my services as a speech writer, citing two examples (England players booed for taking the knee, abuse of players after the final) and giving him clear simple messages he should have given.

I may be out of action for some time, either working from Number 10 or imprisoned in the Tower of London. If the latter I hope that SE22 organises and gets me out one way or another - think of Wat Tyler.

Which reminds me of when Hugh Cornwall, former Strangles lead man had a short sentence for class A drug possession. Jimmy Lydon, John's pretty unsuccessful brother, organised a campaign to keep him in prison.