Zero tolerance of racism and hate crime in sport

[j.a.]

For absolute clarity - yes, of course anyone is free to disagree with a given form of protest on a given subject. I?m not disagreeing with that, don?t get me started on people who wear yellow stars to anti-lockdown marches.

What I *am* saying is that I think conflation of taking the knee with Marxism is laughably, obviously rubbish, and that I can?t for the life of me think why anyone has a problem with a relatively low-key form of protest such as this. It speaks volumes to me.

[TheCat]

i think you've read far to much in the 'just'...not intending to be passive agressive at all. Im saying 'just', as I then go on to say that other people attribute more meaning that 'only' the anti-racist message - i.e. tacit support for BLM and CRT.

Not everything is done with nefarious intent. The above example, in addition to your broader commetns suggest you seem to have very little faith that your fellow man (woman or non-binary) is as smart or as virtuous as yourself.....

I dont mean that to be passive aggressive either...but that is the obvious conclusion from your comments. Im paraphrasing you, but basically you've said that 'Others' dont 'get it'...but you apparently do? Perhaps its worth exploring 'why'....people dont like the knee taking...there may be more to it than your 3 possible conclusions. Speaking for myself I belive there most certaintly is...or perhaps i've been hoodwinked by the right wong press into buying into the fake culture wars?...

also..with regards to the marxist thing.....I'll repaste what IU wrote on thiw thread earlier...

I think this whole phrasing of the 'marxist' nature of BLM having driven the booing is a bit of a strawman made to mock non-political people who dont like BLM. Lets be real for a second...of course most people out there dont consider the 'marxist' nature of BLM and object to them on a academic/political science level....but I expect most people hear terms like 'defund the police' etc and decide they dont like the sound of this mob. Its not a wildly unreasonable thing to think, even if you personally dont agree with it.

[malumbu]

There is a grown up conversation about 'British' culture and how it changes. It has always changed, as we get even closer to other parts of the world. But let's face it, we have been incredibly influenced by the US since the second world war. And that culture itself has changed as Hispanics, black Americans and other large groups have become mainstream (reflecting back on the great film 'On the Town' which only features white people in New York in the 1950s apart from the occasional musician or singer).

That doesn't mean we shouldn't have zero tolerance for hate crime in sport. Rather we should be aware of other predominantly white parts of the country. I grew up in one of these areas, there was ignorance rather than racism. I am very different person today, mainly because I have lived in more diverse towns and cities for most of my working life.

I am always struck by one person from my home town who keeps going on about mixed ethnicity families and advertising. I hadn't even noticed, but now I see many of the main stream ads do feature a nice mixed couple and their kids. Obviously not due to woke reasons but to sell product. They also talk about the BBC having to ensure that their sports reporters are diverse both in terms of ethnicity and gender. Again I don't notice or don't care. But this is how much of the country may view things - virtual signalling.

Sadly of course communities feeling threatened has been exploited in recent years, with a move to populism, and has put some of this agenda back.

Not condoning some of the behaviours discussed, just trying to see it from a different perspective.

[Nigello]

I have been seeing tweets by US black people who say that their experience is more like a European's or Canadian's of any colour rather than an African's because culture should be and is the dominant factor. I tend to agree that a shared culture trumps all, and that even if you don't like some parts of teh culture you are in, it is still more likely that you, like it or not, share much, much more than you think or care to disregard. I like the fact there are differences but I don't fetishise them or use them to suggest anyone is better or worse than another simply for something they ahve no control over (eg. where and to whom they were born). Narcissism of small differences sums it up and social media amplifies it and gives it an importance and relevance it does not deserve. Basically, none of us is that special, so get over ourselves and just muck in while still holding dear certain aspects of one's background. (Which does not mean that prejudice is not apparent in many aspects of life or is overplayed.)

[DuncanW]

Focusing on the issue of taking the knee and the booing of it, I would say this:

The players themselves, and the manager, have made it abundantly clear that this has nothing to do with Marxism and everything to do with taking a stand (or not) against the racism that is sadly prevalent across society and within the world of football and to a large extent, social media.

I have read accounts from some of these players that tell of how they are frightened to look at their phones the day after a match because of the vile abuse that will waiting for them as soon as they look at their social media feed; one in particular struck home who detailed how he can't look at his phone (social media) in the presence of his children as he is terrified that they will see some of it. I don't think you can underestimate how desperate they are for this to end.

So I believe that the players are showing support for the situation in the US, in protest of the systemic inequalities here in the UK, but also very much for their own collective situation of facing such horrible abuse on such a frequent basis.

Taking the knee is how they choose to make this point. So we can debate the issue of whether or not this is the best way, until the cows come home, but the the fundamentals don't change. I can't conceive of how any right-minded, non-racist person could boo their own team for doing this.

Are these the same 'fans' (or their lineage) who twenty years ago threw bananas on the pitch and proudly spewed out openly racist chants. I suspect they might be. Those actions would have you ejected, banned and possibly criminally charged nowadays; booing quite rightly would not. So it serves as a cipher for their real intent.

[TheCat]

I do agree with much of this. I think the booing in particular of your own sports team seems a bit ridiculous, if I didnt like some political/social gesture that my sports teams made, I'd most likely just stay silent about it. For clarity, my comments on this thread are not necessarily 'defending' the booers actions, just trying to suggest that closet racism is not the only answer.

To the point about the players and team staff making their intentions clear - this is a tricky one - as the taking the knee is clearly so much bigger than just something a few footballers do (one might say its heavily entwined with BLM and CRT even:)), so many people have seemingly formed a view of what it represents irrespective of the players stating their intententions. An analogy being that someone could make the nazi salute, while telling you that its got nothing to do with Hitler....but I bet you'd still think he's a nazi....

[j.a.]

Are you just trolling now? You seriously using the Nazi salute as an analogy to taking the knee?

Your earlier responses gave me a lot to think about, and then you go full Godwin and I?m back to wondering if you?re just taking the piss?

ETA - Malumba makes very good points, but I personally don?t have a lot of sympathy for people who don?t like mixed-race adverts etc. There?s a point at which ?seeing the other persons point of view? becomes enabling of nasty attitudes. The line between ignorance and racism does exist, but it?s a porous one.

[TheCat]

Do you just read the word 'nazi' and react without looking at the context?.....the analogy is of a physical gesture which has wider meaning than what the person making the gesture says it represents....choose another gesture if you prefer....its like someone giving you the finger, and telling you that its a gesture of respect....you might not buy that....

[j.a.]

That?s a better analogy. I still disagree with your analysis of taking the knee/BLM, but that?s a far more appropriate analogy.

I don?t think using the Nazi salute is a good idea in this context, in fact there very few areas where it?s appropriate. Don?t bothered if you don?t agree.

[JohnL]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Do you just read the word 'nazi' and react without

> looking at the context?.....the analogy is of a

> physical gesture which has wider meaning than what

> the person making the gesture says it

> represents....choose another gesture if you

> prefer....its like someone giving you the finger,

> and telling you that its a gesture of

> respect....you might not buy that....

So if I give "Thumbs Up" in good faith and it's taken as an insult - Do I stop using it ?

I'm 100% sure the football and rugby player are in good faith.

[TheCat]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Do you just read the word 'nazi' and react

> without

> > looking at the context?.....the analogy is of a

> > physical gesture which has wider meaning than

> what

> > the person making the gesture says it

> > represents....choose another gesture if you

> > prefer....its like someone giving you the

> finger,

> > and telling you that its a gesture of

> > respect....you might not buy that....

>

> So if I give "Thumbs Up" in good faith and it's

> taken as an insult - Do I stop using it ?

>

> I'm 100% sure the football and rugby player are in

> good faith.

I guess if 40 percent of people take the thumbs up as an insult, you might try to find a different way to express your sentiment?

[DuncanW]

Context is all I guess,

Thumbs up is an interesting one as it has a completely different meaning if you're scuba diving.

NB it's not at all accurate to say that 40% of people equate taking the knee with Marxism or are against it in any way.

The majority of football fans support it, or at least respect it. At Wembley, it was a tiny minority who booed - many more cheered, and Millwall is a noteworthy case as it has been the exception in club football - I think maybe there was one other club where it happened, but at the recent end of season matches that had fans in (I was at one) there was no booing at most grounds.

[JohnL]

If fans really hated what was happening I guess they'd vote with their feet and attendance would fall.

I think it's seen as a bit of a skirmish in the culture war by those booing (although I personally don't care if people boo - if they pay)

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

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> IM quite sure that anyone who thinks he wasn't

> murdered probably also doesn't like the taking the

> knee.....but I'd very very surprised if the

> opposite is true.....

Silly word salad from you again. Some people dislike taking the knee because they hate the idea of black people having prejudice against them addressed. You don't have to go very far anywhere to find people who think like that.

[Blah Blah]

TheCat Wrote:

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> sorry if that not clear. of course he was

> murdered. Im referring to BLah's statement that

> most people who dont like taking the knee also

> beleive he wasnt murdered....I dont think anyone

> reasonable would think he wasnt murdered. But

> plenty of reasonable people dont agree with the

> knee for reasons previously discussed. It seems a

> very unlikely conflation of those two viewpoints.

I didn't say most though did I? I said 'many' and was very careful to say that. Try reading what people actually write. Social media is full of right wing people who don't think he was murdered. They claim he died of a drug overdose etc. In America, pretty much every Trump supporter takes that view. They exist, and they follow people like Tommy Robinson and other harder right activists. In fact, I am pretty sure you are fully aware of the right wing nonsense spewed out by critics of the knee and exactly what kind of people they listen to. You are just being disingenuous again, because you can't bring yourself to admit what is blatantly plain for all to see after spending five mins in the cesspits of social media.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > sorry if that not clear. of course he was

> > murdered. Im referring to BLah's statement that

> > most people who dont like taking the knee also

> > beleive he wasnt murdered....I dont think

> anyone

> > reasonable would think he wasnt murdered. But

> > plenty of reasonable people dont agree with the

> > knee for reasons previously discussed. It seems

> a

> > very unlikely conflation of those two

> viewpoints.

>

> I didn't say most though did I? I said 'many' and

> was very careful to say that. Try reading what

> people actually write. Social media is full of

> right wing people who don't think he was murdered.

> They claim he died of a drug overdose etc. In

> America, pretty much every Trump supporter takes

> that view. They exist, and they follow people like

> Tommy Robinson and other harder right activists.

> In fact, I am pretty sure you are fully aware of

> the right wing nonsense spewed out by critics of

> the knee and exactly what kind of people they

> listen to. You are just being disingenuous again,

> because you can't bring yourself to admit what is

> blatantly plain for all to see after spending five

> mins in the cesspits of social media.

The irony of you banging on bout 'word salads' then trying to claim that 'many' versus 'most' actually materially changes the meaning of your comment....

"Some people dislike taking the knee because they hate the idea of black people having prejudice against them addressed"

Yes...if YOU actually read what people actually write yourself. You'd see that I've agreed with that a number of times. Racists dont like knee taking....sure. But not everyone who doesn't like knee taking is a racist. Call that a word salad if you like...but the point it pretty clear.

I dont quite know what you think I cant 'bring myself to admit'??....I agree that I think there are racsits in the world (yes...'they exist'), I agree that those racists will not like the gesture of 'taking the knee'....Im saying that people can not like taking the knee and not be racsist for reasons discussed ad nauseum above....

I dont use twitter, and dont really believe that these 'cesspits' are reflective of the broader world.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The issue is much bigger than 'racists'. The real problem is the structural disadvantage that's 'baked in' to most of our systems, process, institutions and culture. Most people aren't racist in the traditional, widely understood sense of the word. But we are all complicit in a system which marginalises, alienates and / or simply puts up hurdles for various groups. Taking the knee feels like an easy bit of gesture politics to me. I'm not necessarily against it, but do wonder whether it achieves much (it might even be counter productive in terms of moving on the 'national debate' about race).

[TheCat]

Good Comment Rah.

Stepping back....my concerns/objections voiced on this thread are mostly with regards to my view that throwing around the 'racist' tag to brand people that perhaps don't like some aspects of the modern anti-racist movement does nothing at all to move discussion forward. One can disagree with the 'how' and not necessarily disagree with the ultimate aims and objectives....there's too much focus in my view on what divides rather than the significant amount that unites (assuming you believe that most people are NOT racist, which it appears some posters on here are unconvinced on).

I believe there are many people (of varying ethnicities) who find a great deal of modern CRT and Anti-racism activism unnecessarily divisive. But invariably voicing of concerns around these issues can lead to a swift tag of 'racist' and any possible discussion invariably shutdown as a result.

Further, the constant hand wringing about who has the right to voice an opinion on these issues is counter-productive in the extreme. While I of course strongly believe that all of society should listen to minorities about their experiences with these racsism and prejudice. That doesn't mean that the rest of society doesn't have a say in how these issues are dealt with. If we are going to 'move forward' and start improving outcomes for minority groups, then getting the 'buy in' from the majority (as well as the minorities) is surely a critical part of that?

[malumbu]

On the broader subject of multi-culturalism I recall quite a few years ago hearing two older ladies, one white, one black, complaining about Vietnamese being treated preferentially over social housing. I thought twenty years earlier it would be two white women complaining about brown/black people getting preference, funny how life moves on. I expect now that the Vietnamese community have become more integrated the discussion would be about newer arrivals (sub Saharan Africa, Middle East etc).

So yes, buy-in from both minorities and majorities.

[Blah Blah]

'The irony of you banging on bout 'word salads' then trying to claim that 'many' versus 'most' actually materially changes the meaning of your comment....'

They are two different words with different meaning. But predictably you double down again.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 'The irony of you banging on bout 'word salads'

> then trying to claim that 'many' versus 'most'

> actually materially changes the meaning of your

> comment....'

>

> They are two different words with different

> meaning. But predictably you double down again.

Geez....pls learn to take 'I agree with you' as an answer......talk about focusing on what divides......

[Sephiroth]

Anyone had any fresh thoughts over last couple of days?

Senior govt ministers and the sun seem to be (publicly at least) backtracking

[heartblock]

With a PM in charge who has written and verbalised his racist beliefs and continued racism inherent in many institutions I?m surprised that anyone who considers themselves an anti-racist would not take the knee. Kaepernick took the knee as a personal statement and this continues to be a personal statement.

I couldn?t be prouder of our England team and I couldn?t be more disgusted by the continued racism that can be found throughout England in particular. If you aren?t prepared to speak up and recognise this racism, then you are part of the problem.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone had any fresh thoughts over last couple of

> days?

>

Yes, I do actually....:)

Woke up yesterday morning to news of this racist abuse online to the 3 missed penalty takers, and was pretty disgusted and shocked, and gave me pause to consider that perhaps I was wrong in my view that most people in this country aren't racist. Was almost nearly going to post on this thread to that effect.

However, as the day went on yesterday, what was very encouraging was the total blanket condemnation of these actions...whether that be by politicians, media, friends on social media, people at work etc etc. This of course in no way should diminish our disgust at the abhorrent abuse..and we should stamp that out like the bug that it is..but Im somewhat reassured that it is indeed a small minority of absolute bellends.

Seperatley...I am still not in agreement of the conflation of being a 'racist' with disapproval of taking the knee. As i've said before, while many people might think its just a simple gesture against racism, I personally see it as more than that (discussed ad nauseum above). So i dont really agree with the cries of hypocrisy directed at priti patel for example.....I still think one can disapprove of taking he knee, and not be lumped in the same bucket as people sending monkey emoticons on social media and defacing the rashford mural...

heartblock Wrote:

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> Kaepernick took the knee as a personal statement and this continues to be a personal statement.

If its a personal statement...then surely other should be free to express their own personl views against racism in other ways. and not be told they are racist becuase they dont like 'the knee'

[Sephiroth]

Whilst of course it's good to see the public backlash against racist behaviour, that's still a low bar - that is people simply doing what they should be doing

politicians publicly condemning? That is often hypocritical given their previous public pronouncements in the case of Johnson and Patel, and should be condemned as precisely that

But the bigger problem remains - the cycle continues. Players (in this instance - bit of course regular folk as well( have to live with abuse, consequences for the abusers are effectively nil (notwithstanding outliers like the estate agent employee) and around and around we go - "it's just a minority. it's just bots from east Europe online" etc etc

It's going to take more than that to change things.