Boris Johnson: a genuine concern...

[Alan Dale]

removed

[Marmora Man]

I have just returned to find my post to BN5 generated quite a response! When I have time tomorrow I'll reply, unrantingly, in more detail.

[SeanMacGabhann]

;-)

I had an idea you were unable to join back in for whatever reason yesterday MM.

to be continued....

[????]

Ken is everything that is so detestable about politicians self-seeking deepy unprincipled and opportunistic hidden beneath a veneer of outdated ideology - any attack on him is dismissed as media/racism/zionism etc. He uses to harp on about the Labour party and it's importance to him and his values,then deserted them when they didn't want him as candidate for mayor before the spinelss Blair asked him back in. He would do anything to get elected and is cearly a deeply unpleasant character. Boris is an upper class chump..., I'm voting Paddick who at least as some experience outside politics, although I am worried a vote for him will let the odious Ken back in.

[lozzyloz]

Personally I'm a fan of Ken.

The fact that he stirs up such a polarity of emotions, as shown above, is a positive thing.

Starts the debate, gets people thinking.

I don't necessarily agree with 100% of what he does and says, but as a Londoner I believe that he's genuinely passionate about this city.

That's who I want running the show.

If I had to list my preferences it would be Paddick in second, BJ wouldn't even appear on the radar.

[Marmora Man]

Sean

Warning - this is a long, but I hope not ranting, post!

Sometimes we will differ! I won?t try to answer all points made by all posters. It is clear I am in a minority in supporting BJ ? but in less of a minority in detesting KL as cynical, hypocritical, sly, manipulative, deceitful and self serving. Some may say I have just described the average politician but in KL the unpleasant side of politicians has, in my view, been distilled into a super refined essence of nastiness without, a far as I can see, any balancing humanity or genuine desire to make thing better.

I agree many are supporting BJ as a ?get Ken out? option but I see BJ as a far more normal politician looking for a role as London mayor. I am sure BJ will be an effective and efficient London Mayor ? who will use the administration and public servants to manage effectively.

I do not think he has grandiose plans; that seems to be KL's beat. BJ is undeniably intelligent ? but has perfected an image as a bumbling, foot in the mouth, upper class fool - for reasons unexplained. I suspect it is to do with the fact that there is no real place today in mainstream politics for the clever maverick,

This image has allowed BJ to say certain things and support certain positions that would not otherwise be articulated. It is a handicap he has created for himself and he is now working to develop a serious persona that reflects more accurately his genuine ability as he can see that the Mayor of London role can be a perfect position for the intelligent maverick.

I wouldn't want this to spoil a virtual friendship but will try to answer a few points.

Sean Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

His own racist and sexist behaviour has been documented over many years.

Documented? Or reported by The Mail/Evening Standard.

I do read rather more widely than the Evening Standard and despise the Mail. I have friends / colleagues in the London Labour movement. Their descriptions of Ken's behaviour are too blunt for publication - but I do believe they speak the truth and that is the primary source of my comment here.

"His kitchen cabinet has been deeply involved in at the least shoddy accounting and quite probably financial corruption." Allegedly - unless you have access to the files...

Agree "allegedly" but I did qualify my statement - at the very least there has been shoddy accounting and auditing of public funds.

"He has cynically used London funds to promote himself abroad with "London Embassies" across the globe. Again - allegedly - how does this stack up? How would any other mayor differ? Isn't that part of the job?

The job is to run / manage the City effectively and efficiently. I cannot see what a London Embassy in Curacao, and elsewhere, does for London.

"He is a directive rather than consultative politician." Probably true. But consultive politicians are

accussed of flim-flammery and not having any convictions. I like someone who has a view, says

what they are going to do, stands for election and then goes and does it without being watered down by committee

Consultative doesn't necessarily mean flim flam - it would involve listening and analysing before taking action. KL holds consultations and then ignores them. He stands up and says what he?s going to and then doesn?t do much / most of it. He's not alone in this but I do not like it - especially in a role that is essentially one of local action / response to a very defined community.

"His attitude to London Assembly members is arrogant and dismissive - and the language he uses when addressing them when not answering their legitimate questions is rude and bullying"

examples?

I have watched the LA in action (sad) - and also watched it on local TV news reports. I stand by what I said.

"He has politicised TfL

Not sure what your point is here? He has politicised? Gordon Brown using PPP with the tube was teh politicising. Ken (rightly) opposed it and was lambasted for doing so. Look where we are now

You missed my point ? KL has, allegedly, involved TFL in anti BJ campaigning. This is politicizing public servants / service and not on.

He has exploited the poor of Venuzuala and Hugo Chavez to provide subsidised fuel for London

Transport to fund a reduction in fares for pensioners. London transport now runs more empty buses than I can ever recall in 30+ years of London living.

He got rid of the Routemaster bus after saying "only a moron would want to get rid of this iconic

vehicle"

whoah!! Who is politicising now? The very idea that consumers, shoppers, mainstream political

parties are NOT living of the backs of the poor in other countries apart from this one stunt of

Ken's?!!!! Are you serious?

Yep - I was probably over the top on this one - but KLs stunt was inappropriate for London and did nothing for its reputation.

As for empty buses - I travel on a variety of routes and often at non-peak hours. I haven't seen

a near-empty bus yet in the last 8 years. But let;'s say you are right and they are plentiful. Isn't that the very encouragement people need to get out of cars? I often hear "oh I would give up me car but the buses are full of people armpit to armpit" - well then, here you go, plenty of space! use 'em

Our experience of London buses seem to be different. I have cycled past a 17 bus traffic jam on Waterloo Bridge composed primarily of 68s & 168s. Similar jams on Blackfriars of 63s and 363s. KL doesn?t seem to have got the balance right.

But to take your points:

"has invited hardcore Islamicists to London who call for killing of homosexuals, Jews and apostates, for the oppression of women as well as supporting terrorism against the UK."

Yep he has - how does this make him different from any other leader who has to engage with people they may disagree with? Not that long ago thatcher was welcoming dictators to this country and recently defending him in the papers as well. At least Ken has spoken out against the beliefs held by the Islamicists

There is a difference between international politics and London politics. KL appears to want London to have some form of identity separate from the rest of UK. His approach and style is not coordinated with national politics. It makes him different because he doesn?t speak out against the Islamicists and I haven?t seen the PM or others inviting Dr Qaradawi to speak.

And finally - the main point that bugs me: "Whatever is against the grain of current othodoxy

he's for it. "

That is the description of most career politicians. It is the OPPOSITE of what Ken is. Say what you like about him (and you have) but he is consistent in his views and it is left to others to catch up. Back in the 80s when he was lambasted for speaking to the IRA and standing up for gay rights - he wasn't doing it to be oppositionist - he believed they were teh right things to do. The last 20 years have proved him right. And he hasn't suddenly started hating the Irish and gay communities

I have lived in London, as an adult since 1972 ? in all that time KL has been opportunist, doing what?s best for him. He may believe in what he says (I don?t believe this by any means always the case) far more often he was keen to be seen as opposing current orthodoxy. His courting of the IRA in the 80?s did not help the peace process but delayed it ? by giving credibility and publicity to the terrorist actions (He wasn?t just talking to them he was glorifying them and their actions). He supported Peter Tatchell when supprting gay rights was unorthodox, now it is mainstream he brings the leader of Islamicist organisation the Muslim Brotherhood, Dr Qaradawi to London. He turned against Trevor Phillips, once a long term ally.

SM 2nd Post:

As a bus user and pedestrian I can say the single biggest thing that has impacted my life as a force for Good is the ocngestion charge. Bus journeys definitely were much quicker and the air noticeably better. The fact that congestion has crept up is a sign that people accept the charge (similar to tube fares by the way) and are using cars more again. Increase the charge again

But BJ isn?t going to cancel the scheme ? merely the extension into West London. I do not believe taxing people off the streets is the right way ahead.

"Plans to allow motorcyclists to use bus lanes."

Not sure how this is necessarily good... Statistically safer for motor cyclists.

Removal of road humps and timing traffic lights to favour pedestrians.

fair enough - hardly revolutionary

Reducing costs of the central political machine that KL is running,

Absolutely bog-standard electioneering. Anyone standing is likely to say this

Removing the "bendies" - a populist move and one which I as a cyclist, pedestrian and council tax payer applaud,

I don't hate the bendies as much as some - I can see how disabled people might appreciate them, BJ has identified a Routemaster design that allows disabled access see (New Routemaster)

Increasing police / CPSO's on the beat - again populist but sensible.

again, standard-issue quote. Prediction: if elected it won't happen

But to take the wider issues concerning the man:

Here he is in the Telegraph in 2006:

millions of seven- to 15-year-olds are hooked, especially boys, and it is time someone had the guts to stand up, cross the room and just say no to Nintendo. It is time to garrotte the Game Boy and paralyse the PlayStation, and it is about time, as a society, that we admitted the catastrophic effect these blasted gizmos are having on the literacy and the prospects of young males." He went on to say "We get on with our hedonistic 21st-century lives while in some other room the nippers are bleeping and zapping in speechless rapture, their passive faces washed in explosions and gore. They sit for so long that their souls seem to have been sucked down the cathode ray tube.

You may agree but that's me he's talking about. I don't appreciate it. I do tend to agree and have battles with sons to go out cycling etc rather than sit in front of electronic games.

As for Liverpudlians I'm not one of them - I shall let them comment on him saying:

"that many Liverpudlians had a "deeply unattractive psyche".

The whole water-melon smiles and picanninies quote re: black people speaks for itself despite his protestations

He also supported Section 28 and opposed the minimum wage

Right wing? I'd say so. Right of centre ? certainly. Foot in the mouth - certainly. Died in the wool racist, sexist etc ? NO!

SM ? as I?ve said before. I?m primarily a libertarian, of light blue persuasion with light red edges. Like Keef, and others, I detest Ken Livingstone. I also detest unthinking criticism of politicians / politics ? engage in discussion / argument and dialogue by all means but BN5's post got me when I'm at my most sensitive - early in the morning with a long busy day ahead.

We'll probably have to agree to differ - if we're both still posting in 18 months time perhaps we can discuss BJs first year as mayor?

[SeanMacGabhann]

you said it was going to be long MM and you weren't kidding.

I think your final paragraph has it right when you say we'll agree to differ - I have no desire to take on each and every point only for you to have to come back and then for me to reply and etc etc. Some of the points you make are good and some others I would still robustly argue - but it is such a wide debate and I doubt we will ever meet in the middle

I'm unlikely to vote for Ken this time but will never vote for Boris however

[JesusCappuccino]

..................

[SeanMacGabhann]

you think?

I don't believe MM is, by nature, all that argumentative and as he says, the original post from BN5 caught him at a bad time.

Having expanded his points further (in what is possibly one of the longest posts on here?) I can't see any point in countering - we wouldn't be bringing anything new to the table. He makes points I disagree with but it's clear he has thought about them and applied his own values and good on him I say. It's not a if it is someone taking a reactionary stance.

Sometimes agreeing to disagree can be the best course

[Marmora Man]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> you think?

>

> I don't believe MM is, by nature, all that

> argumentative and as he says, the original post

> from BN5 caught him at a bad time.

>

> Having expanded his points further (in what is

> possibly one of the longest posts on here?) I

> can't see any point in countering - we wouldn't be

> bringing anything new to the table. He makes

> points I disagree with but it's clear he has

> thought about them and applied his own values and

> good on him I say. It's not a if it is someone

> taking a reactionary stance.

>

> Sometimes agreeing to disagree can be the best

> course

On this we agree! A pint of your choice awaits you next time I can get to an EDF gathering. Better to discuss, argue and then drink together. Besides we agree on so many other things - cooking, eating, drinking, Leonard Cohen and the power of rational debate.

[SeanMacGabhann]

exactly - and forgive the third person in my paragraphs above - I had assumed you had done "your post of the day"

a pint back at you as well

:)-D

(now if only those pesky trolls were as thoughtful!)

[spadetownboy]

now that sean and mm are all loved up,can we please stop referring to boris as bj, its conjuring up some pretty nasty images for me.

[fish]

spadetownboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> now that sean and mm are all loved up,can we

> please stop referring to boris as bj, its

> conjuring up some pretty nasty images for me.

(td)(tu)

[Michael Palaeologus]

I wish Boris Johnson had stuck to presenting "Down Your Way" and the "Test Match Special".

[SteveT]

I cannot see any reason to have a mayor just another snout in the trough(6)grrr

[Marmora Man]

I'm not sure it advances my case in any way at all but that seasoned political commentator, Madonna, has come out against Red Ken as she terms him.

[Mark]

Madonna said "I would make it so that young musicians, aspiring musicians wouldn't have to pay the congestion charge or pay taxes."

Perhaps she should stand instead of Boris?

[*Bob*]

I'd imagine she's really feeling the pinch.. what with that extra congestion charge tax on (so called) gas-guzzlers.

[*Bob*]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Madonna said "I would make it so that young

> musicians, aspiring musicians wouldn't have to pay

> the congestion charge or pay taxes."

I suppose she wouldn't mind extending such exemptions to fabulously wealthy musicians too.

Bono certainly seems happy with his tax situation..

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Tried to get onto the legitimate electoral registration site this morning - it's been hijacked by this site which is quite amusing:

NOT the official version!

[Mark]

Did anyone see the debate between the three candidates on Newsnight last night? If not you can watch it online here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/

I get the impression Boris thinks this is some sort of grown-ups game and he just has to win, I don't think he understands that there's rather a lot of work to do (for a long period of time) if he wins.

[KalamityKel]

That jobs for the ppl who hold him up all the time...

[Alan Dale]

removed

[david_carnell]

It wasn't even close. Paddick and Livingstone wiped the floor with Boris.

God help us if that clown becomes Mayor.

[louisiana]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Tried to get onto the legitimate electoral

> registration site this morning - it's been

> hijacked by this site which is quite amusing:

>

> NOT the official version!

Peckhamgatecrasher - can you tell me exactly how you got there?

(I do a lot of work on elections and digital, and we (Open Rights Group) are once again fielding election observers this May. I'm interested in what really happens, people's experience, as opposed to the theory of what *should* happen.)