Bakerloo Line extension petition through Camberwell and Peckham

[nxjen]

A recent development

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7540

[titch juicy]

Nigello Wrote:

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> How selfish of you who don't think a connection is

> needed. What about the poor sods who have to

> labour up and down Walworth Road on the often

> full-to-burst buses, for whom a faster connection

> into London would help them get to schools,

> colleges, places of work and cultural venues more

> conveniently. That Camberwell has no rail service

> - underground or overground - is unfair and for

> that reason alone I'd welcome a rail link of some

> kind for SE5 (and a Tube link for SE22/15 too).

I very regularly get the 12 from Peckham rye to oxford circus- door to door 45 mins. 25 mins from camberwell.

Denmark hill overground is also very close.

A little patience and effort go a long way.

[titch juicy]

The Old Kent road proposal makes much more sense

[Jeremy]

Old Kent Rd option sounds good, but would be a missed opporunity if there wasn't an interchange at Queens Rd.

[James Barber]

The Bakerloo Line extensions proposed by TfL involve 6 trains per hour from Elephant&Castle. But the Bakerloo Line has many more trains than that per hour. The obvious solution is to split the line and have two branches - one along OKR perhaps and another through Camberwell and beyond. it should be an either or.

[egoode]

I definitely think Old Kent Road is the more likely option as developers could help contribute to the costs like the new northern line extension. However I agree with Jeremy an interchange at Queens Road or even New Cross Gate would be a good idea as it wouldn't make sense to not connect it to the overground line.

[Zebedee Tring]

> If I understand you correctly, wavyline, you are

saying that it would be a shame if the tube was

extended to Camberwell or the ED area. Are you

serious?

I agree that it would be a shame. From a purely selfish point of view >

So basically what you are saying is all those people living, say, up near the Plough, I couldn't give a damn about you, cos I'm all right Jack.

[Earl Aelfheah]

so nearly 3000 people sign a petition for an extension via Camberwell and are ignored... and apparently that's a good thing? Instead of viewing the construction corporations as kindly philanthropists happy to invest in transport for the good of Southwark residents, perhaps we should consider the fact that they will get significantly more from any deal than they contribute. The vast majority will come from taxpayers (you know those folk already living in Walworth and Camberwell for example), who will be subsidising an 'exciting new investment opportunity' in 'London's vibrant new quater', in order to make handsome returns for overseas investors and Lend Lease or whoever else it is who get's to profiteer from it all. We pay our taxes so that we may have decent public services, including transport. For more than 60 years, Camberwell has had the prospect of a Bakerloo line extension dangled in front of it and now we're told that their elected representatives are going to support the interests of property developers over a well established community - their own electorate?

[KrackersMaracas]

I completely agree rahrahrah. I often think about the wonderful restaurants we have nearby, from a personal perspective a lot of friends are put off from visiting our area because without the tube it is perceived as difficult to get to (or from past a certain time of night). I don't like to think of ED becoming a version of northcote road and I love it's character - but I do think that better transport links will help local businesses flourish.

[titch juicy]

KrackersMaracas Wrote:

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> I completely agree rahrahrah. I often think about

> the wonderful restaurants we have nearby, from a

> personal perspective a lot of friends are put off

> from visiting our area because without the tube it

> is perceived as difficult to get to (or from past

> a certain time of night). I don't like to think of

> ED becoming a version of northcote road and I love

> it's character - but I do think that better

> transport links will help local businesses

> flourish.

But it's not difficult to get to.

[titch juicy]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> > If I understand you correctly, wavyline, you are

>

> saying that it would be a shame if the tube was

> extended to Camberwell or the ED area. Are you

> serious?

>

> I agree that it would be a shame. From a purely

> selfish point of view >

>

> So basically what you are saying is all those

> people living, say, up near the Plough, I couldn't

> give a damn about you, cos I'm all right Jack.

How will it help people that live up by the plough? It's just as quick to jump on a number 12 to Peckham rye as it would to get to ED station

[cle]

The Bakerloo runs 24 trains each hour - and most tube lines can do 28-32 during the rush. Let's say 28 for argument's sake.

Could there not be two branches each with 14 trains per hour - a pretty good number and better than the District line or Met line branches, or Hammersmith & City?

One could go to Walworth, Camberwell, Denmark Hill, East Dulwich, Dulwich Library and Forest Hill.

One could go down Old Kent Road to New Cross Gate, Lewisham and onwards somewhere, like Catford in between the two existing stations?

Does leave Peckham out though.

Goes to show how much South London needs the tube if we're spoilt for choice on routes. North London has no such dilemmas or gaps.

[KrackersMaracas]

Titch Juicy -No, it's not, but it is perceived as such.

Edited to be clearer!

[JamesViktor]

cle Wrote:

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> The Bakerloo runs 24 trains each hour - and most

> tube lines can do 28-32 during the rush. Let's say

> 28 for argument's sake.

>

> Could there not be two branches each with 14

> trains per hour - a pretty good number and better

> than the District line or Met line branches, or

> Hammersmith & City?

>

> One could go to Walworth, Camberwell, Denmark

> Hill, East Dulwich, Dulwich Library and Forest

> Hill.

> One could go down Old Kent Road to New Cross Gate,

> Lewisham and onwards somewhere, like Catford in

> between the two existing stations?

>

> Does leave Peckham out though.

>

> Goes to show how much South London needs the tube

> if we're spoilt for choice on routes. North London

> has no such dilemmas or gaps.

No! One route should go E&C, Walworth Road, Camberwell, Peckham Rye, Brockley, Lewisham and then Blackheath to Slade Green. The other should go E&C, Walworth (East Street maybe), Burgess Park, Old Kent Road, New Cross Gate, Lewisham and then Ladywell to Hayes. Both Bexley and Bromley need a slice of this pie! I think people living in Southwark borough forget that we are even here!

[michael_FH]

By definition two branches are more expensive than one branch. So it is possible that two phases could be undertaken eventually, but at the moment the main focus needs to be on getting public funding for a Bakerloo line extension to somewhere in South London. The Old Kent Road is looking like a easier route to justify through house building, but it is not clear where it should go after.

Some in Lewisham are currently lobbying for an extension of the Overground from New Cross to Lewisham (and beyond), which does make sense, but it is questionable whether the Bakerloo line should also go to Lewisham or whether it could take another route, for example via Peckham and Lordship Lane to Crystal Palace. If you work on the premise that it should go though a tunnel, rather than use existing above ground tracks, then virtually any route is possible. But two tunnels would be very expensive.

[JamesViktor]

Exactly, which is why TFL said that it needs to surface as soon as possible, which is why the Hayes and Slade Green options are preferred. Obviously Lewisham Station will be underground, but then the line can then surface shortly afterwards for Ladywell and Blackheath stations to be above ground.

[Zebedee Tring]

So what's wrong with a branch of the Bakerloo Line being extended to Dulwich Library and Forest Hill, as suggested by another poster? Or don't you care as it wouldn't help you personally?

In the words of someone whose name escapes me, we're all in this together (irony alert).

[titch juicy]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> people living, say, up near the Plough, I couldn't

> give a damn about you, cos I'm all right Jack.

>

> plough? It's just as quick to jump on a number 12

> to Peckham rye as it would to get to ED station >

>

> So what's wrong with a branch of the Bakerloo Line

> being extended to Dulwich Library and Forest Hill,

> as suggested by another poster? Or don't you care

> as it wouldn't help you personally?

>

> In the words of someone whose name escapes me,

> we're all in this together (irony alert).

Sorry, I was assuming that existing stations would be used. I wasn't aware that there'd e options to build whole new stations. Would there?

[JamesViktor]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> So what's wrong with a branch of the Bakerloo Line

> being extended to Dulwich Library and Forest Hill,

The extra tunnelling would be very expensive. Besides, that area is pretty well served by TFL Overground Services.

[cle]

Those London Bridge/Lewisham lines places do not need the links as much. Their trains are frequent and fast compared to 'South Central' places. Overground onwards from New Cross makes sense though, it's a white elephant currently.

The Bakerloo is a tiny tube and should terminate in zone 3 rather than take over outer and Kent routes. Also, the lines would cause delays to each other. Even Earls Court and Edgware Road on the District prove that tubes should be self-contained - Northern line another clusterf*ck too e.g. Camden.

What housing is going to be build in the Old Kent Road? Is 2.5k homes that big a deal compared to the existing population of Walworth and Camberwell? I hate this obsession with regeneration and new developments - god forbid anyone builds something to serve a long-standing area. I know it's for developer money primarily, but also an obsession with shiny new rubbish. Are there no developer-ready sites along the Walworth Road catchment?

[JamesViktor]

cle Wrote:

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> Those London Bridge/Lewisham lines places do not

> need the links as much. Their trains are frequent

> and fast compared to 'South Central' places.

> Overground onwards from New Cross makes sense

> though, it's a white elephant currently.

>

> The Bakerloo is a tiny tube and should terminate

> in zone 3 rather than take over outer and Kent

> routes. Also, the lines would cause delays to each

> other. Even Earls Court and Edgware Road on the

> District prove that tubes should be self-contained

> - Northern line another clusterf*ck too e.g.

> Camden.

>

> What housing is going to be build in the Old Kent

> Road? Is 2.5k homes that big a deal compared to

> the existing population of Walworth and

> Camberwell? I hate this obsession with

> regeneration and new developments - god forbid

> anyone builds something to serve a long-standing

> area. I know it's for developer money primarily,

> but also an obsession with shiny new rubbish. Are

> there no developer-ready sites along the Walworth

> Road catchment?

Yes because 2 tph is very frequent isn't it! And stopping at the station forever makes getting into town very quick? Maybe you should take a trip to Beckenham or Bexleyheath on a Sunday afternoon, because quite clearly you have no clue in what you are talking about!

Harrow & Wealdstone isn't Zone 3 it's Zone 5? And I never mentioned taking the Bakerloo out into Kent?! The trains will terminate at Hayes and Slade Green respectively.

Maybe you should do some research first?

[cle]

Those trains go to Gravesend and Gillingham, Kent surely even if Bexleyheath and Hayes don't count these days.

2tph sure, but on about three different routes - Victoria, Charing Cross, Cannon St...

Harrow & Wealdstone has nothing to do with future extensions and what they should do, and who's talking Sunday afternoons? Maybe the Bexleyheath Forum is more for you.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I hate the way that we look at it as some sort of gift from 'developer money', when in fact it's a massive taxpayer subsidy for investment properties. How about the tax we pay being used to provide us with transport services, minus the siphoning off of loads of it from vested private interests.

cle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is 2.5k homes that big a deal compared to

> the existing population of Walworth and

> Camberwell? I hate this obsession with

> regeneration and new developments - god forbid

> anyone builds something to serve a long-standing

> area. I know it's for developer money primarily,

> but also an obsession with shiny new rubbish. Are

> there no developer-ready sites along the Walworth

> Road catchment?

[JamesViktor]

cle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Those trains go to Gravesend and Gillingham, Kent

> surely even if Bexleyheath and Hayes don't count

> these days.

>

> 2tph sure, but on about three different routes -

> Victoria, Charing Cross, Cannon St...

>

> Harrow & Wealdstone has nothing to do with future

> extensions and what they should do, and who's

> talking Sunday afternoons? Maybe the Bexleyheath

> Forum is more for you.

Some trains go Barnehurst then Slade Green and terminate there. There is a big depot at Slade Green, so the Bakerloo trains could easily terminate there, which is what TFL itself has said. Hayes is at the end of it's line. And of course they don't count these days, Beckenham, Bexleyheath and Hayes haven't been in Kent since 1965, you wouldn't call Wembley Middlesex or Richmond Surrey! You said the Bakerloo should go no further than Zone 3, so therefore you want it curtailed to Stonebridge Park? And why shouldn't Sunday afternoons count? I would like to go to Central London on Sunday afternoons but have to time myself around Southeastern's, official worst operator in the country's, services. People in Harrow & Wealdstone don't have to worry about stuff like this! What makes outer NW London so special and not outer SE?

[MissKing]

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/extend-the-tube-to-camberwell-peckham/ Here's the link to the petition if anyone wants to sign it