Bakerloo Line extension petition through Camberwell and Peckham

[LondonMix]

Wasn't part of the idea though to divert commuters away from Victoria? That might have been part of the rationale for not doing the connection.

[9Pence]

The problem is not solely one of water. The historic barrier to tunnelling in south London is one of the composition of the London sub soil strata, in so much as variability of it's makeup.

Have a look at the attached diagram. The picture shows us ground water levels 'the water table' is without doubt rising evenly and right across the entire London basin. This is a process that has been going on for a considerable number of years. Water of itself is not an insurmountable problem to tunnelers. After all there are plenty of traffic communication tunnels under water with plenty more planned.

There is a large red vertical arrow pointing to a fault line just south of Lambeth marked 1. A little further to the south there is another line (not arrowed) marked 2. It is these fault lines which are the problem with tunnelling in south London. At these points the sub soil at a fixed depth radically changes in composition. The change in water level from water impermeable London clay to permeable Lambeth Group is also an issue. Lambeth Group is a strata permeable to water. It is composed of silts, gravels and medium sized post glacial erratics.

The problem of the high water level can be overcome but what cannot be so easily be overcome is the combined effect of high water AND unstable subsoil. It is tunnelling through the sub soil boundaries between the two strata that is the tricky bit. It is dangerous, challenging and ultimately a very very expensive transport solution for south London.

These boundaries, marked here as vertical lines, do not just exist in just one dimension. They stretch right across south London to the east to Kent and in the west as far as Windsor then beyond. Anyone remembering the tunnel work undertaken in south London for the extension of the Jubilee Line will recall just how much these south London gravel beds were the source of numerous delays and very expensive postponements to the original opening schedule.

Boris Johnson now tells us tunnelling technology has moved on in the past 25 years. Indeed it has. It has now reached the stage where extensions to the London tube network via tunnels mean it is possible to tunnel safely and economically through regions which to earlier generations were impassable.

In 1903 it was decided to terminate the Bakerloo Line at Elephant and Castle. Elephant and Castle station is placed precisely on this Lambeth boundary, between the two soil strata. Termination was necessary as they did not have the where with all to safely extend the original line on and into the Old Kent Road.

[edhistory]

At last, somebody who understands the geology.

The fault line runs across the East Dulwich and Nunhead valley.

Perhaps 9pence can contribute to the next "subsidence" thread.

John K

[Penguin68]

The rise in the water levels from 1965 as shown back towards 'original' in part has been caused by the significant reduction in 'classical' industries, particularly brewing, which were substantial water consumers. As less water is taken by industry even the vastly increased population cannot consume the water for domestic purposes (exacerbated by water conservation measures).

This may, over time, have a significant impact on domestic architecture stability, particularly where houses have deep basements.

[James Barber]

The last costing of opening ELL2 platforms at Brixton was ?60m.

[cle]

Did that include 8 car platforms so that the Dartford - Victoria trains could stop there too?

[bil]

James Barber Wrote:

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> The last costing of opening ELL2 platforms at

> Brixton was ?60m.

Crazy! ....a bit of negotiation to get the price down :-)... and it would have transformed south London's transport network!

[philosophie]

Sorry to resurrect all of this, but thought it was interesting to see in this article, http://londonist.com/2013/10/busovercrowding.php, that the 185 and 176 bus routes are cited as among the most crowded in London... Surely more ammunition to get further transport infrastructure in the surrounding area, such as a tube extension to Camberwell? I've also noticed over the last couple of years that I've lived here that the First Capital Connect services from Denmark Hill in the mornings are getting ever more crowded...

[lane lover]

Very interesting. Also the 484 on that list, which serves DH.

[bil]

I agree Philosophie..

[James Barber]

The last itme I asked the annual bus subsidy per route was ?4M.

The proposed Bakerloo extension is being touted at circa ?2bn.

POver crowded buses wont win the business case argument. If anything bus routes would be cut to help finance it.

[Top Girls]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone who lives in ED could afford to live in

> Bromley if they wanted to. You can't be jealous of

> something you are actively choosing not to have

> :/

>

> You don't need a fast train into central London

> from ED as its in inner London. How much faster

> do you want to go directly into London Bridge when

> it currently only takes 12 minutes...

>

> Big Waitrose would be nice though :) Still, I

> choose ED mostly because people who live in

> Bromley hate most of the things I like about

> London!

You have an interested private message to read and share with everybody.

[michael_FH]

James Barber Wrote:

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> The last time I asked the annual bus subsidy per

> route was ?4M.

> The proposed Bakerloo extension is being touted at

> circa ?2bn.

>

> Over crowded buses wont win the business case

> argument. If anything bus routes would be cut to

> help finance it.

I don't think the subsidy per route is that high (especially not in South East London), but I think the cost of a proper Bakerloo line extension (going underground not using existing rail tracks) is higher.

You are correct that overcrowding on buses doesn't automatically provide a business case, but it does show a significant capacity issue in the South East corridor, and almost certainly supressed demand and slow connection times. It is the supressed demand for public transport, and tube particularly, in South East London that is the reason for improving capacity. Bakerloo line is not the most cost effective method in the short term, but you cannot compare capital expenditure to running costs on alternative service. If this were the case then the case against Channel Tunnel would have been overwhelming - why not just run a few additional hovercraft?

A business case for HS2 is based on the amount of time wasted by people travelling to meetings in Birmingham, so how time is wasted by bus commuters (long journey time and waiting for full buses to go past) when they could be busy working?

Bakerloo line extension is about so much more than bus capacity, but bus overcrowding in South East London is a clear indication that something serious is wrong in South East London and that a radical solution is probably required, and the right solution is obvious for anyone to see.

[HopOne]

Spot on Michael_FH. We wouldn't have any tube lines at all if we just compared existing bus route running costs to capital cost of digging tunnels. The bus overcrowding is very strong evidence of demand for a better transport service.

[bil]

michael_FH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James Barber Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The last time I asked the annual bus subsidy

> per

> > route was ?4M.

> > The proposed Bakerloo extension is being touted

> at

> > circa ?2bn.

> >

> > Over crowded buses wont win the business case

> > argument. If anything bus routes would be cut

> to

> > help finance it.

>

> I don't think the subsidy per route is that high

> (especially not in South East London), but I think

> the cost of a proper Bakerloo line extension

> (going underground not using existing rail tracks)

> is higher.

>

> You are correct that overcrowding on buses doesn't

> automatically provide a business case, but it does

> show a significant capacity issue in the South

> East corridor, and almost certainly supressed

> demand and slow connection times. It is the

> supressed demand for public transport, and tube

> particularly, in South East London that is the

> reason for improving capacity. Bakerloo line is

> not the most cost effective method in the short

> term, but you cannot compare capital expenditure

> to running costs on alternative service. If this

> were the case then the case against Channel Tunnel

> would have been overwhelming - why not just run a

> few additional hovercraft?

>

> A business case for HS2 is based on the amount of

> time wasted by people travelling to meetings in

> Birmingham, so how time is wasted by bus commuters

> (long journey time and waiting for full buses to

> go past) when they could be busy working?

>

> Bakerloo line extension is about so much more than

> bus capacity, but bus overcrowding in South East

> London is a clear indication that something

> serious is wrong in South East London and that a

> radical solution is probably required, and the

> right solution is obvious for anyone to see.

Good points Michael_FH

[JamesViktor]

The thing is, if Bromley Council are so opposed to this, Bexley Council will gladly have it take over the Bexleyheath Line to Slade Green and then possibly Bluewater. Especially if both Bexley and Greenwich Councils, as well as, Berkley Homes with their massive development at Kidbrooke Village, provide financial support to TFL. It wold be beneficial for all three, as well as, many, many businesses from Blackheath to Slade Green!

[healey]

Camberwell was an obvious tube destination 70 years ago and it remains one.

[MissKing]

It would be great if the tube came to Peckham / Camberwell.... but there's no chance of it happening any time soon! First they would have to get funding. Then develop the project plan and consult on it. Then build it. Even if they decided to go ahead with it, it would take quite a few years! I do hope it happens though.

[JamesViktor]

MissKing Wrote:

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> First they would have to

> get funding.

I'm sure the combination of Southwark, Lewisham, Greenwich and Bexley Councils, as well as, Berkley Homes could provide a large chunk of the necessary funding.

[MissKing]

Maybe... But my point is that it would take years!

[wavyline girl]

Totally with you ????.

You get used to it. Its part of the character of this area, its why it isn't quite so frenetic or built up. It also helped make people more locally focussed in their activities.

Besides,the trains and buses are more frequent now.

There has been speculation for years, but I guess now that the Affluents have discovered South East London, its more likely to happen.Shame if it does.

[Zebedee Tring]

If I understand you correctly, wavyline, you are saying that it would be a shame if the tube was extended to Camberwell or the ED area. Are you serious?

[titch juicy]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> If I understand you correctly, wavyline, you are

> saying that it would be a shame if the tube was

> extended to Camberwell or the ED area. Are you

> serious?

I agree that it would be a shame. From a purely selfish point of view.

Besides- central London is easily accessible from Peckham Rye already

[Nigello]

How selfish of you who don't think a connection is needed. What about the poor sods who have to labour up and down Walworth Road on the often full-to-burst buses, for whom a faster connection into London would help them get to schools, colleges, places of work and cultural venues more conveniently. That Camberwell has no rail service - underground or overground - is unfair and for that reason alone I'd welcome a rail link of some kind for SE5 (and a Tube link for SE22/15 too).

[Jeremy]

Denmark Hill is only a 5 min walk from Camberwell Green. Loughborough Jn 10 mins. Agree that Northern Camberwell/Burgess Park area is a deadzone though.