Bakerloo Line extension petition through Camberwell and Peckham

[Townleygreen]

I see we have descended into the usual EDF cesspit.

Why not return to the topic of the tube extension?

[michael_FH]

Good idea Townleygreen.

Perhaps we could get a route that would go through Peckham and up to the newly rebuilt Crystal Palace, then on to Beckenham and/or Croydon. All this should be underground rather than taking up space on our already congested rail system.

[KidKruger]

toffeese15 - I heard the same line you quote from your friend's Bromley neighbour here in ED, as well as "he's a Jew you know" and "coming over HERE, giving US parking tickets" and some Anti-white sentiment too.

You're just describing London or even England aren't you ? Seems your trying to create an impression, but not from a balanced perspective.

[9Pence]

Yeah here's a TfL type of map.

Only thing is the map really does show the new line completely and totally avoiding the Camberwell option(s).

The Bakerloo extension is so desperately needed it's no longer a political gambit. For commuting Londoners in the south east it's an essential as good schools for children or decent healthcare for the elderly.

Population density and room for growth determine how these things impact in our daily lives. Transport more so. Boris wants to put south east London on the tube map and he wants to invest both his and the Gvmt's money wisely. The professed logic for money for public transport infrastructure is people numbers - population density to you and I.

It doesn't much matter what they're doing. They could be shopping, working or at leisure - makes no difference at all just so long as they're moving from A to B or from B to C or C to D. It's all about movement figures, 'cause movement figures indicate growth.

Take any town, village or city in the UK, the same rules apply. It is the projected number of passengers per hour the train, the bus, or the tube will carry that determines much if not all of todays transport policy decisions. Ironically in London to build public transport infrastructure you must first find the empty places. It is where people don't currently live new transport can make the biggest difference. For biggest difference read make the most healthy returns on investment.

People need space to grow so it is in the empty wards with space available where new transport makes the most difference. The same logic says if all the land is developed you cannot enhance or uplift transport revenue with new investment. In the latter case revenue could only be generated by changing people's established work, leisure, travel pattern. That's nothing like as profitable as finding an empty space, developing it with high density housing and then offering those same people the opportunity to travel to their place of work/leisure or shop in super fast, spanking new trains. Much Much more profitable.

Posted at the bottom is one image of three maps. They show local Geography (Google), Infrastructure (TfL) and Population Density (HMG). The last map shows the empty space in south east London. The more faint the blue the more space is available for growth. The more dense the blue the less opportunity there is for high growth. This map also shows one continuous corridor of 10 white zones. These stretch from Lewisham in the north to Hayes in the south. This is the South East London Development Corridor. One large contiguous region representing huge opportunities for growth and investment.

Geography shows us the way the human landscape evolved. The historic reasons why people in south east London live where they do. Rivers, streams, hills, canals and even the local weather have all played their part in shaping our collective human geography.

Infrastructure shows us where Boris, TfL and Lewisham Council would like to put their new Bakerloo tube line and stations.

Population density shows us why TfL, Boris, Lewisham Council, the GVMT and The Treasury want to put the tubes lines there in the first place. The population map is from 2011 (so it's up to date) shows the eight zones(1-8) for population growth, IE space in south east London. The eight zones with the highest available space are all to be linked and/or traversed by the new Bakerloo Line extension. Could be coincidence but somehow I doubt the boffins at The Treasury and County Hall missed this little trick. It's more likely to be a case of intelligent people doing the most obvious thing with their money as opposed to investors doing the strangest thing.

Not a bad way to go if you want to put as many people as possible, on the tube, on one line, in one huge scheme and all in one go. The current Tfl transport plan only omits two zones out of the original ten under populated zones previously unconnected to a major transport hub. In this case Lewisham. Eight out of ten and it's suddenly apparent the job of putting south east London on a tube map near you is no longer all talk. It's all done.

If there's space then there's growth. If there's growth there's money to be made. At the end of the day transport for south east London is not about trains, carriages, sidings or tunnels, embankments, points and signals. It's just all about money, money and space. Simple as that.

[edhistory]

I'm interested in maps.

I can't work out what your three taken together illustrate.

John K

[Townleygreen]

Quite agree, John. Make no sense to me either.

[Brendan]

James Wrote:

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> Not everyone in Bromley is a swivel-eyed loony

> rightwing nutter.

Yes they are.

[Brendan]

???? Wrote:

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> Whilst I am not sure about Bromley, I agree

> completley with Loiusa about the tube...would

> spoil SE22 and I don't give a Foook about my house

> price. Another transient suburb full of SAFFAS and

> Aussies...nooo thanks. I do like the less

> transient saffas and aussies we have now to be

> clear ; )

Xenophobe

[????]

*Ignores bait and swims on past

[James]

James Wrote:

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> Not everyone in Bromley is a swivel-eyed loony

> rightwing nutter.

Yes they are.

LOL

[James Barber]

What bothers me is no safeguarding of a large enough construction site is taking place at Elephant&Castle.

The map I have shows both tunnels currently terminate under the railway bridge at the very northern end of the Walworth Road.

The obvious site to safeguard for the required construction IF the council genuinely wants it to come via Camberwell Peckham Rye abutt Elephant Road.

Without such a construction site the costs will balloon and it's less likely to take place. Without such a site safeguarded petitions become so much politicl flim flam.

[Yuuna]

Where would a proposed tube station in Camberwell be? I read a poster suggest Camberwell Green... Oval Station isn't that far. Also, there was the Walworth Road suggestion; again, Elephant & Castle Station isn't that far... Both suggestions seem too near existing stations within a short bus ride or walk.

Depending on where you are in Camberwell, I would think Oval Station, or perhaps even Elephant & Castle Station, would be relatively near enough. I think it's places like East Dulwich and or Peckham that would have more benefit by having new tube stations.

I do find it annoying, at times, that places like East Dulwich (and South East London in general) have less direct transport links, I don't like national rail much due to it's infrequency (London has gotten to me...). However, I think people know that when they move here - it's not that central. Camberwell is quite central. I just don't see the necessity for a tube station in Camberwell.

[bil]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where would a proposed tube station in Camberwell

> be? I read a poster suggest Camberwell Green...

> Oval Station isn't that far. Also, there was the

> Walworth Road suggestion; again, Elephant & Castle

> Station isn't that far... Both suggestions seem

> too near existing stations within a short bus ride

> or walk.

>

> Depending on where you are in Camberwell, I would

> think Oval Station, or perhaps even Elephant &

> Castle Station, would be relatively near enough. I

> think it's places like East Dulwich and or Peckham

> that would have more benefit by having new tube

> stations.

>

> I do find it annoying, at times, that places like

> East Dulwich (and South East London in general)

> have less direct transport links, I don't like

> national rail much due to it's infrequency (London

> has gotten to me...). However, I think people know

> that when they move here - it's not that central.

> Camberwell is quite central. I just don't see the

> necessity for a tube station in Camberwell.

Hi

On the contrary, a tube station at Camberwell is important as it would reduce congestion along both the camberwell new road and the walworth road. Presently the options are bus and car or train from Denmark hill. The sheer volume of traffic plus the narrowness of the camberwell new road can make journey times from ED to central London an hour plus by bus (and the distance is only 5 miles or so). At rush hour the buses are bulging with over capacity and it can be a 20 minute wait to get on from the camberwell new road at times. If more people were able to use the tube to get into central London (presumably PAYG or travelcard users) then this could reduce the need for as many bus routes and will reduce overall congestion.

I would prefer one even closer like Peckham (as I live in ED) but I do think one in camberwell is essential.

[chellbirdse15]

it is my understanding that this will never be an underground line for two reasons, one the water table is too high in this area and secondly because of all the areas where the black death people were buried. This is why there were tram lines in originally all the way through to the early 50's and then they took them out of service, there used to be a depot down in Peckham, which I don't think is there anymore. If they could offer us an over ground tube solution, that would be fantastic.

Good luck with the petition.......

[lane lover]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where would a proposed tube station in Camberwell

> be? I read a poster suggest Camberwell Green...

> Oval Station isn't that far. Also, there was the

> Walworth Road suggestion; again, Elephant & Castle

> Station isn't that far... Both suggestions seem

> too near existing stations within a short bus ride

> or walk.

>

On that basis, why have a station at Picadilly Circus when Leicester Square is a mere 150m away?

The tube is a metro system, and the distances you describe are far more than the distances between most tube stops (Metropolitan Line excepted).

As bil said, it would reduce congestion of buses etc in and around Camberwell.

> Depending on where you are in Camberwell, I would

> think Oval Station, or perhaps even Elephant &

> Castle Station, would be relatively near enough. I

> think it's places like East Dulwich and or Peckham

> that would have more benefit by having new tube

> stations.

>

> I do find it annoying, at times, that places like

> East Dulwich (and South East London in general)

> have less direct transport links, I don't like

> national rail much due to it's infrequency (London

> has gotten to me...). However, I think people know

> that when they move here - it's not that central.

> Camberwell is quite central. I just don't see the

> necessity for a tube station in Camberwell.

[Yuuna]

I did question where the proposed station would be. I'm not sure this will go ahead. That is interesting chellbirdse15. I didn't know about that.

[reddulwich]

I see mention of where the station should be and people saying Oval and Elephant aren't that far, and what about East Dulwich. All fair points.

Perhaps we should take a leaf out of the Tyne and Wear metro and connect up more transport links/ and or relieve existing routes. What about a station underneath/connected to Denmark Hill rail station, that would relieve some pressure on the roads round King College. Its also one of the most air polluted places in London, according to recent stats.

Its also only a few minutes from East Dulwich and Camberwell Green.

Tied in with this, you could get some more money to strengthen the bridges at the station.

You'd probably need to rebuild the newly (and poorly designed) built ticket office, with more gates, self service machines and reposition the monitors showing traintimes.

[Zebedee Tring]

Someone may have already mentioned this on this thread, but they could reopen/rebuild as an Overground station the former East Brixton Station on the old South London Line from London Victoria to London Bridge. This could serve as an interchange station with Brixton Victoria Line Station and Brixton South Eastern Station.

[James Barber]

Hi Zebedee Tring,

I thought it was the high level Brixton station that would need to reopen and would then be served by thre East London Line Extension (phase2) which reopened last December.

Hi Yuuna,

The only Transport and Works Act (TAW) to have been passed by parliament for this extension had stations at Walworth Road, Westmoreland Road, Camberwell Green. Described as going to Denmark Hill which in my wishful thinking was the train station but on reflection was probably the road in the centre of Camberwell.

They had no problems with tunnelling along this route. It was cancelled at a time of austerity in 1950's. It's very common for governments to cancel capital projects but with time this looks very short sighted.

The exact proposed station sites isn't really that important at the pre project stage. Any scheme by TfL would use TWA which comes with compulsory purchase powers. At Camberwell I could easilly see it having several entrances/ exits dotted around the main crossroads.

[cle]

Could it split at Camberwell into two branches?

A short one to Denmark Hill (station) and then East Dulwich. Possibly on to Dulwich (by the Plough) and Forest Hill/Catford.

And then another along Peckham Road to New Cross Gate or Lewisham. An east-west station could maybe link the two New Cross stations underground, like Moorgate and Liverpool Street will be on Crossrail?

Bakerloo is 24 trains an hour, so 12 an hour each? And if that could increase with the resignalling, then all the better.

I think taking over a longer line isn't a great idea. Tubes are for zones 1-3 or 4 at a push ideally, especially the smaller trains like the Bakerloo.

[d.b]

cle Wrote:

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> Could it split at Camberwell into two branches?

>

> A short one to Denmark Hill (station) and then

> East Dulwich. Possibly on to Dulwich (by the

> Plough) and Forest Hill/Catford.

>

That would be great, it would definitely ease congestion at Camberwell, link together different rail lines at DH, ED, and FH, and generally make transport links a lot more sensible in the area. A station somewhere between ED and FH would be ideal, since there is a fairly wide residential area in a "hole" more than 20 mins walk from any rail station right now.

Downside is, it would be new track/tunnel all the way so no cut-price option for rail planners, so not much chance of it happening.

[Zebedee Tring]

James, I stand to be corrected since until the late 70s I was a North Londoner. However, I thought that East Brixton was the old high level Brixton Station on the much missed South London Line between London Bridge and Victoria. It was the station between Denmark Hill and Clapham (now called Clapham High Street). I was suggesting that the reopened/rebuilt station would be served by the ELL (Phase 2), i.e. part of the Overground.

[James]

Reopening East Brixton strikes me as a great idea. At the moment getting from Peckham or ED to Brixton takes forever by road considering how near it is. Also we'd be able to change onto the Victoria line

[bil]

It is frustrating that the London overground/ELL2 passes directly over Brixton station en route from Denmark hill on its way to Clapham but doesn't stop at Brixton. What a difference that would have made; easy access to the Victoria line. I don't know what the costs would have been to build the platform but seems like it would have or could be a relatively quick win that would benefit many in South East London who use the overground.

[pebs]

Totally agree bil