Hartlepool & (latterly) North Shropshire

[j.a.]

(Deleted cos life?s too short)

[j.a.]

TheCat Wrote:

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>

> Unfort for Labour this is the age-old problem with

> much of the left....they have 'good' and 'right'

> on their side, so they are never wrong, its the

> voters who are wrong...over and over again

> apparently.....

>

>

> To be fair thought the statement from the Labour

> party this morning did seem to acknowledge they

> need to change. I wont hold my breath though.

Labour?s in probably the worst trouble it?s ever known. I?d caution that Twitter is not real life, and all those ?haters? that Quids seems to think make up the entirety of left-wingers in this country are more likely just the ones that shout loudest from the safety of their keyboard. A lot of more sensible people, I suspect, can see it for what it is.

And that?s, as has been stated repeatedly up-thread, a colossal inability of the ?left? to realise that principles without power mean nothing in politics. They still don?t understand why Corbyn was reviled in the Red Wall, and until they get that - and the fact that screaming at each other like a bunch of irate sixth formers does not a coherent strategy make - they?ll be doomed to the wilderness.

I voted for Khan partly for personal reasons that I?m not going into on here, but also because I don?t think Bailey is up to the job. Binface got second preference (because I want Fox to get less votes than a man with a bin on his head) but everything else was Green. Labour need to get their head together or this?ll be a one-party state.

[????]

j.a. Wrote:

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> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > If you want an answer to why the Labour Party

> > keeps losing just google ?Hartlepool? and ?

> thick?

> > this morning. Doomed if so many of its vocal

> and

> > activist supporters hate this country and the

> > people they claim to represent.

>

>

> You do realise that pretty much everyone on this

> thread has already agreed with that?

>

> Seems like you came on here purely to

> virtue-signal your own opinions. If people were

> posting derogatory comments about Hartlepool

> voters than I could understand you, but as it is

> your basically being a pound shop Nadine

> Dorries...and she?s already pretty pound shop...

Bizarre, but I'll ignore your lack of civility as I'm really not interested in having and argument I'm not looking for with someone I don't know on the internet. Have a good day.

[JohnL]

Seabag Wrote:

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> This put a smile on my face

>

> And the town is no stranger to political upset, in

> 2002 the main political parties were all fighting

> to become Hartlepool's first elected mayor.

>

> Instead, the town chose local football mascot

> H'angus the Monkey

And then the person in the costume was re-elected twice before the post got abolished - that dismayed me - democracy dying. Why do they not want serious local democracy ?

(And I mean that if they had a proper mayor the post wouldn't be abolished)

[j.a.]

???? Wrote:

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> j.a. Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ???? Wrote:

> >

> Bizarre, but I'll ignore your lack of civility as

> I'm really not interested in having and argument

> I'm not looking for with someone I don't know on

> the internet. Have a good day.

So much cognitive dissonance...so much...

[????]

Ooh good, a stalker.

[JohnL]

It's a hammering I'm afraid.

Mark Drakeford doing OK in Wales though ... as is Alun Wyn Jones.

[Blah Blah]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

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> Hartlepool is proper Brexity though, isn't it.

> Surely this is a big part of it. Boris Johnson's

> neo-nationalism and promises to "level up" the

> North are sure vote winners in places like that

> (not sure how many of you have been to Hartlepool,

> but Hartlepool is in desperate need of a bit of

> levelling... one way or the other)

That and it has also been selected for one of the Freeport licences. Boris is still in ascendancy because he is only two years in. When the pandemic is over, and the party tries to claw back the debt, and when many of those red walls areas see nothing changes for them, the pendulum will swing back as it always does.

Having said that, I don't see Starmer as the person to pull them back. He is just too lacking in personality and dynamism. I can see Labour lose the next GE and then, depending on who takes over, rebuilding from there.

[Blah Blah]

I am pretty much with j.a. here. Labour has to find a way to reconnect to the red wall, because it has no way to power without it. Failure to understand why Corbyn was so hated is a real issue. There are many party members who still blame the media, the right wing of the PLP and just about anyone but Corbyn himself. These are people who want a socialist revolution irregardless of what the electorate want. Under Corbyn's leadership, the party was more focused on internal reform than winning elections. That damage will take time to repair but here is the upside. The Tories also were struggling with slim majorities, until they found that leader who could break through. Sadly politics really is that fickle. Personality is everything. If Labour are going to defeat the character that is Boris, they need their own character that plays the game better. Then everything can change very quickly. Blair is the obvious example of that.

And to add that the SNP are consolidating, so coalition at the cost of a referendum may well also be their only way back to power (just as an EU referendum was for the Tories to see off the UKIP threat). That in itself has electioneering problems for Labour of course, so will never be talked about until the scenario to form a coalition actually arises.

[malumbu]

We have short memories - do we remember how Blair was portrayed on Spitting Image, a school boy in-between Prescott in a boiler suit, and a horsey looking Beckett. Most were still grieving for John Smith.

How much of Blair's ascendency was a very weak Tory government? It helps in establishing your Prime Ministerial credentials. Just a personal insight on the mid 90s

What a really really hate is all these mixed messages on foreign travel. And the selective leaking to some of the dailies. Let's see what the spin is on all of this at 5 when the announcements are made about overseas roadmap.

[diable rouge]

When Starmer took over it felt like the right move, a safe pair of hands to steady the ship after the disaster of Corbyn, but I've been disappointed by his lack of drive and not having a clear vision. He should be given more time to try and turn things around, but if no improvement then look towards Andy Burnham. He certainly has plenty of drive and passion, so I can see him giving Johnson a contest on that level.

He won a lot of plaudits when he stood up to the Tories over the Tier system, and I can see him naturally appealing to Red Wall voters but not to the extent of alienating the electorate elsewhere...

[Alan Medic]

Perhaps the people of Hartlepool aren't as thick as some portray them to be. If they didn't vote a CONservative in, what chance of getting any investment in their area from the Tories? The Tories have a habit of looking after their own. Mind you, when they fail to keep their promises, then that will be a different kettle of fish.

[JohnL]

Boris was literally dragging Carrie by the arm to the polling station. Maybe she didn't want to vote.

I'd have slapped him.

[Loutwo]

Labour has ignored the white working class for decades, and that is now coming home to roost in the north of the country. Simple as that really. If you want to keep appeasing a bunch of wealthy London Islington elitists, on your head be it.

Louisa.

[Sephiroth]

Gentle reminder. The tories have been in power for 11 years

Blaming labour for leaving some straw man white working class behind only goes so far

If people are disaffected and left behind, why blame a government from over a decade ago?

And what is it that this government is promising and going to deliver? Because I take an interest in these things and I have no idea.

[Blah Blah]

Quite Sephiroth. The disenfranchised have been failed by both parties in recent decades.

It seems to go like this at the moment. Starmer has a pint in a working class pub, and he is patronising the working classes. Boris or Farage do that, and they are standing with the common people. That is the narrative the BBC for example, have been pumping out for some time now. Labour, talking to themselves, too metropolitan, middle class etc. Boris meanwhile, an old Etonian, nothing in common with ordinary people, and not a peep about that.

So while impression matters and sticks, you have to blame the media for creating those impressions and making them stick too. The fact is that the media is owned by people with vested interests in maintaining a Conservative status Quo. Labour, no matter what they do, are always on the back foot as a result.

[TheCat]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Quite Sephiroth. The disenfranchised have been

> failed by both parties in recent decades.

>

> It seems to go like this at the moment. Starmer

> has a pint in a working class pub, and he is

> patronising the working classes. Boris or Farage

> do that, and they are standing with the common

> people. That is the narrative the BBC for example,

> have been pumping out for some time now. Labour,

> talking to themselves, too metropolitan, middle

> class etc. Boris meanwhile, an old Etonian,

> nothing in common with ordinary people, and not a

> peep about that.

>

> So while impression matters and sticks, you have

> to blame the media for creating those impressions

> and making them stick too. The fact is that the

> media is owned by people with vested interests in

> maintaining a Conservative status Quo. Labour, no

> matter what they do, are always on the back foot

> as a result.

Yes these are all impressions. But if most people are being honest Sir Kier, when at the pub or interacting with 'common people', looks about as comfortable as a pig at a BBQ.

For all Boris's many faults, you can't deny he is an electioneering/campaigning machine, and one of the skills of that is appearing comfortable and at ease with having that pint in a working class pub - and still managing to do that even though people know he went to Eton etc.

I think blaming the media is missing the point here. Sir Kier has a reall challenge ahead, as even if he gets a handle on his own party, the 'impression' I have is that Labour will conduct focus groups etc to basically work out what they should say to disenfranchised former labour voters. And, yes, all parties use the same tools, but for whatever reason, many people will still have the impression that Sir Kier is saying it becuase he has been told to say it. Whereas they will believe that Boris is genuine, even if the same mechanics have been used by both parties to get to the key message...frustrating for some...but it's a key skill of all the more electable politicians...think Blair as a great example, and think Theresa May as an awful example. So labour need to find someone that has skill....

While I would agree that I wish competence was a key criteria, the reality is that it is not. And labour would do well to realise this....surely they can dig someone up that has competence AND charisma...

[Sephiroth]

I wouldn't disagree with most of that Cat

But it does feel a bit like we are back in late 19th century Wild West where snake oil salesmen went from town to town and I wonder why that is

for most of 20th century it seems like we avoided obvious charlatans and relied on boring competence (I'm oversimplifying - but as a generalisation) . Why are we back here?

[TheCat]

Good question. I agree something has changed int he past 30 odd years.

A couple of wild theories....

- Ever-presence of Mainstream media - So not specifically to do with bias per se (as was referred above), but just that absolutley everything gets reported on and blown out of proportion, as media outlets need far more content than they did last century to compete in an oversaturated media marketplace. I.e. 30 years ago, would we really have seen the same volume of clips of therasa may during the 2017 election to brand her a 'robot'?

- Rise of social media - I've said this plenty of times on here. But the rise of everyone having a platform to express whatever crazy view they want has just accelerated the tribalism and partisanship of modern politics. It has also amplified the importance of 'personality' as there's only so much people can discuss policy before losing interest.

- Culture wars - this will likely be a more controversial point, but if you feel that neither major party is doing much for you. But if you feel one of them (including their outriders) is calling you stupid/rascist/priveliged and sort of looks down on you...and the other is not....then competence probably matters less than emotion.

[Sephiroth]

I suppose the rise in last 20 years of voting as entertainment shows from X factor to apprentice plays a part too

I think people on all sides need to worry less about being called stupid (either explicitly or by allusion) and reflect a little on wether they are choosing wisely.

It is possible for intelligent people to make very very stupid decisions. And it should be ok for other people (be it friend or foe) to call them on it

People in this country find it very easy to call voters in other countries racist or dumb or wrong. Partly because it can often be true, but also the distance allows more objectivity

But it is possible for people in this country to take a wrong turn and over-indulge ?an entertainer? because he provokes or indulges less-than-benign impulses

And I definitely think this country is going down a dark path. Not because it won?t vote labour. But because after 11 years of this govt it?s very angry and not willing to accept who really might be the root of that anger

[JohnL]

The 24 hour media coverage has helped Mark Drakeford and especially Vaughan Gething in Wales.

Seems it helps to be on TV every day ;)

[Loutwo]

People are reading into this too much. The left often over-dissects a poor election result, and then makes all sorts of wild assumptions.

It?s simple. Labour is appeasing two camps. Metro socialists and traditional working classes. Metro socialists are over represented at parliamentary level, and a perception (rightly or wrongly) has festered in the mind?s of some of those traditional old industrial communities, that Labour doesn?t represent their opinions anymore.

How do you fix that? Boris comes across as your best mate (even if he?s blindsiding you in every sense). All he is doing, is successfully riding off the back of a perception solely created by the Labour Party. Go back to basics, have policy ideas which reflect the concerns of these communities, put those policies across from charismatic personalities who look and sound like the people they want to represent. Move away from London-centric representation. It isn?t reflecting everyone else?s opinions in the country.

Louisa.

[Droid]

Loutwo Wrote:

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> How do you fix that? Boris comes across as your

> best mate (even if he?s blindsiding you in every

> sense). All he is doing, is successfully riding

> off the back of a perception solely created by the

> Labour Party. Go back to basics, have policy ideas

> which reflect the concerns of these communities,

> put those policies across from charismatic

> personalities who look and sound like the people

> they want to represent. Move away from

> London-centric representation. It isn?t reflecting

> everyone else?s opinions in the country.

>

> Louisa.

You might have added that Boris throws mountains of money at any issue that he thinks will help him eg HS2 ?106Bn), Covid (????Bn), Regional infrastructure (?80Bn), etc etc, Garden Bridge and we may even get a Tunnel to Ireland!

[Sephiroth]

Whenever Lou declares something simple...

[Loutwo]

I keep forgetting I?m preaching to mostly metro socialists.hope you enjoy the wilderness for the next 10 years.

Louisa.