Book about anger/feelings for pre-schooler

[WorkingMummy]

Another professional child carer pm'd me about how having her own children after 14 years as a nanny was a real eye-opener and changed the way she thinks about other people's kids for whom she cares. And in reverse, my sister visited me from Newcastle last week with her one baby. He was cranky. I took him for her. And I remembered, how so many things about babies and children are so much more fun, and easy, when you are not the mother. Ie when you don't feel ultimately responsible, when you don't have love the size of a planet bursting through your heart. When the little person does not treat you as the safest and most secure depository of all their turmoil. When you are not, for that little person, Mummy, bigger than life itself in their eyes.

I dig what Susyp says about the pain.

[WorkingMummy]

"Angry Arthur" arrived in the post this morning.

LOVE IT!!!

I'm going to be really careful about sharing it with my LO. I think I'll need to pick a time when there is no (and has not recently been) any edge of a struggle between us. I don't want her to get the vibe from me, "This is what you are like and it is awful!!" Though this would clearly be the exact opposite message from the one intended by the creators of the book, fact is, if I am honest, it is sometimes what I feel, when I am not my loving self, and I really do not want to burden her with that.

BUT, even if I never share it with her, or I try it and she's not that into it, I will always be very grateful for this recommendation. Because this book changes ME. It inspires in me an enourmous amount of compassion for my very angry child, in a way no conversation, no guru, no complex and sometimes clouded real-life encounter with her anger ever has. It also has very powerfully, I hope once and for all, completely silenced the critical voice in my head, that says, "You are her mother! Do something!" The nearness, and yet the utter remoteness from the child, of the adults depicted in each scene says it all. And I just love the grown-ups' relaxed bewilderment too.

I can see why some people are nervous of this book. But I would highly recommend any parent of a child who gets very angry to buy this book for themselves.

Thank you forumites!

WMxx

[bumpy]

Although SuperManny may have upset some, please don't dismiss the book suggestion http://www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-Child/dp/1853407054

I've a 3 year old boy and have read this book numerous times and can truly say we are all much calmer and reasonable when we follow it's suggestions.

Yes it's hard in the heat of the moment but I guess if something is practised enough it eventually becomes second nature.

And surely if http://www.amazon.co.uk/Talk-Kids-Will-Listen-Child/dp/1853407054 suggest it to their mentors reading list it must make some sense as they deal with some very difficult situations. :)

[susyp]

working mummy that book sounds amazing, I shall check it out!

have a nice glass of wine tonight too!! I think you deserve it!

having children is so complicated. And I think the more you care, the more complicated it is.

mine has meltdowns on the way home from school most days. although i find if i can bring her food that takes her the entire journey home to eat then we at least get through the door and scooby doo switched on before she remembers about having her meltdown.

susypx

[oopsithinkthatwasme]

As a psychologist (although not working with children but have learnt and discussed plenty on ongoing basis with team members who do) I think SM is spot-on in his approach. It's about picking from his advice what will work for your child/ren, rather than saying one thing won't work, so dismiss the lot as bad advice. Really kind, lengthy and well considered post in my view.

[oopsithinkthatwasme]

Hmmm although I totally have to say children usually are much more likely to act out with a parent than with a carer. When I get home on Thursday (the day my 2 spend with their nanny) they often kick off far more than usual about 30 minutes after she has left. She normally says they have been angels all day! So it might help SM's case if he acknowledged that. Plus he has the energy to pre-think strategies for managing outbursts, i.e. the sledge as alternative to bicycle idea would work with my children, but try thinking that through when you're making breakfast, late for work, dressing and clearing up poo, walking the dog, etc. Anyway.... food for thought all round.

[WorkingMummy]

I'm not talking about SuperManny anymore, this is just my response to the last post:

What I react against the most (and come to think of it, dislike about some of the superNanny shows on tv) is the idea that your children kicking off or getting angry is a sure sign that you are doing something wrong: be it not giving them enough attention or not using the right discipline or managment technique (time out step, self-talk, whatever), or not having access to the right "behavioural whizz" as someone aptly said in this thread. I just don't think that is true.

If you have an angry child on your hands, that is what you have on your hands. Ultimately I think it is disrepectful to the child to think there is a way of divining that the anger comes from YOUR failiure or actually has anything to do with you. Sure, sometimes kids meltdown because they are hungry or tired. So, feeding your children and putting them to bed are good ideas. Who needs to be told that? Wisdom like, watching violent tv winds kids up etc etc, has its place, but frankly, what parent isn't already hugely concerned about that kind of thing? My point is: kids are allowed to have anger which belongs to them and orginiates in them and is THEIRS. Sure I can see that a child might be angry because their parents are having a hard time (not talking about my own life there) or because someone's died or because of some other difficulty. But that does not equate to something being wrong or that you solve it or stop your kids from expressing lots of "inapporiate" (I reject that term) anger by never arguing when the kids are around, or reaching for a particular book or using a particular phrase, or this or that or whatever.

[Saffron]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What I react against the most (and come to think

> of it, dislike about some of the superNanny shows

> on tv) is the idea that your children kicking off

> or getting angry is a sure sign that you are doing

> something wrong...

>

> If you have an angry child on your hands, that is

> what you have on your hands. ... Sure I can see

> that a child might be angry because their parents

> are having a hard time (not talking about my own

> life there) or because someone's died or because

> of some other difficulty. But that does not

> equate to something being wrong ....

Just focusing on these parts of your posts, does it strike anyone else that situational anger can be a totally different thing to having an 'angry' child? Any child can experience situational anger b/c of parental or family problems, school, friends, etc.

BUT, surely some children have more trouble with anger than others, just natually? That's certainly not the parents' fault anymore than if you have a difficult sleeper, a sensitive child, a fussy eater, etc, etc, etc. The main things is not to exacerbate the issue once you recognise it. I totally agree that children --even very young children -- have different personality types that are beyond the parents' control, and that certainly does not equate to something being wrong.

I think the supernanny type behavioural fixes appear to work quite well for situational anger. Perhaps this would not be the case for other anger scenarios? Remember that the families on these shows have been through a selection process prior to filming, and the shows are heavily edited post-production. A glossy, quick-fix show is going to have way more selling appeal than the real life uphill struggle of channelling children's creative, yet sometimes destructive, internal forces and emotions.

On that Jungian angle... have a read of this strange and brilliant article: "Where the Wild Things Are as Method of Psychoanalysis for Anger in Children" http://voices.yahoo.com/where-wild-things-as-method-psychoanalysis-4539535.html

[oopsithinkthatwasme]

I am taking the term 'inappropriate anger' to mean lashing out and hurting other people when angry, rather than expressing anger in other ways. And it can help to teach kids how to control the more physical impulses as it could well land them in trouble. I definitely think children need to express anger and we need to help them do it in a way which will be ok at school and with peers and other adults.

[Otta]

Family Room at it's best. Someone comes on and tried to offer advise (not all of which I'd agree with I might add), advise not gratefully received, and person immediately vilified.

Excellent work ladies, you're doing yourselves proud.

[WorkingMummy]

I really don't think any vilification is going on! That would be awful. O dear. :-(

I think more than one "lady", including me, has more than once acknowledged SM for his obvious kindess and willingness to put a lot of effort into trying to help. And plenty of people other than me have said that his words ARE very helpful.

When I wrote, "I am not talking about Supermanny anymore, this is just a response to the last post" two or three posts above, I did NOT mean something like, "o my goodness do not mention his name." NOOOOOO!!! I meant, I want to express my views, but I don't want those views to be heard as opposition/disagreement to anything he said. Because I'm not talking about what he said, I'm just responding to the very last post by oopsithinkitwasme.

Extremely sorry if I've caused offence. I was trying to ensure that I didn't.

I think we all have to have a lot of confidence in each other's good faith when such difficult topics are discussed and no one can see anybody else's face or hear their tone of voice. Or in some circumstances, recognise their pain and other point of view-ed-ness.

Peace and love to all!!!

[Otta]

Fair enough. For the record, you have my sympathy, I have a very strong willed 3.5 year old girl.

[WorkingMummy]

Now in response to the recent posts other than the villification acusation....

I think you are probably right, Saffron, that there is a real difference between situational anger and a child who is - for a reason which may or may not be fathomable, and which requires a lot of respect and love and acceptance - angry a lot of the time. But I think the two blend. Because you still have all the situational stuff to handle ON TOP of whatever background noise your child is working through/chucking at you. And the background noise can make the situational stuff seem impossible

What is really helpful to me and my little girl at the moment, is to pretty much to abandon the "how-to" situational stuff that Supermanny and many others, in different circumstances, may find helpful on a day-to-day basis. Yes, like oopsithinkitwasme, I can see that sometimes, concern about socialising a child, to fit in at school or to help out their teachers or whatever, might be a big concern. But as it happens for me it's not. This is partly because school is 9 months off for us and that is forever for a child her age. And secondly because my LO is a nursery 2 1/2 days a week where she is universally liked by teachers and other kids. In fact, her yearly review from her key care worker last term described her as incredibly easy to deal with. Significantly the only "issue" the nursery has is that the see my LO as an exceptionally caring child, who needs support, get this, "knowing that it is ok for her to go and play when any other child in the nursery is upset or angry". Apparently, she'll sit for a long time with other kids who are crying or storming and really sweetly try to help. (To the point she sometimes gets in the way of the teacher.) She finds it really hard to walk off and play if anyone else is sad/cross.

So I think, maybe, part of what i get from her, is that when she comes home to me, she has a lot of cxxx to discharge (ie other people's feelings she has soaked up and is too little really to handle). But maybe that's not it, who knows? Maybe she is really angry because I work. Or that I have to sometimes ignore her to deal with her brother or sister. All I know is that what gets thrown at me (and only me) is storm force ten (with a lot of "i hate you" or once an "i want to make you dead") and a lot of thrashing out. And though I have this really useful (and heart warming) insight from her teachers, that maybe gives a clue to what might be going on underneath with her, it is still hard on me to deal with.

So all I have been looking for (and requested in this thread, to be fair to me) was a book, that I could share with her, about how it feels to be in an emotional hurricane of negativity and rage aged 4. Because I just want to connect with her in a process which I do not fully understand but want to respect. And in her case, no, I'm not going to labour or how lashing out and hitting mummy is wrong or "inappropriate" and requires t/o. She's an incredibly caring girl. She knows it is not ok to hit! She intensly needs to hit me but I don't think she is happy about that or finds it funny or ok! She feels bad enough about it as it is, I believe. I just want to try to grow, myself, to be big enough to take it.

Supermanny, everybody, sincerely, please forgive any part of my thread which has offended!

But see, we don't know what we are dealing with when we talk about our own children a lot of the time, let alone when we volunteer unrequested advice to other people. Or venture bold to suggest that reading a book is all that is required to make "having children enjoyable". It's just, not the point. Not for me. As Saffron wisely and very moderately put it, it doesn't touch me. This was not begun as a thread about psychology. It was a specific request for a real life mum, in a real life situation, with a unique and lovely and incredibly challenging little girl.

Hooraaay for "Angry Arthur"!

XXXXX

[Inkmaiden]

Otta Wrote:

---------------------------------------------------

>

> Excellent work ladies, you're doing yourselves

> proud.

I think we are actually, I've found this thread full of refreshing honesty and the disparity of points of view makes for a really interesting and informative debate.

I'm really glad you like the book WorkingMummy.

[Otta]

I was finding the thread great, and very informative until the last page or so. But that's finished now.

[Belle]

I think I need to get that book - WorkingMummy let us know as and when you do get a chance to use it.

[WorkingMummy]

:-)

Well it happened rather sooner than I'd planned as my 4 year old found both "Angry Arthur" and Ju Ni's recommendation of "I Feel Angry" on my desk this afternoon and because we all LOVE a new book here in our house (tears and tantrums when they cannot be taken into the bath) it was all I could do to persuade her to wait until later. I moved them both but they were retrieved by the girls for BEDTIME reading. I was slightly nervous, I'll admit.

"Angry Arthur" was a big hit. It helped I think that I had both my 4 year old and my very light hearted 2 year old on my lap as we read.

"So, Angry Arthur," I announced as I opened the book. First page: depicts a boy, nice and chilled, not at all angry looking. "He's not cross!" shouts my two year old. ?He?s not an Angry Arthur!?

And so we began, nice and calm. And it was very moving for us all. My two year old didn't say much, but I think it was probably useful for her, as she is pretty bewildered by her sister's tirades too from time-to-time.

As the story progressed, my 4 year old declared that she knew exactly what was going on. "His body is making him angry and he can't help it, Mummy." Mmmmmm, interesting!

We were also very interested to see that, although they did not completely understand what was going on, none of the grown-ups were freaked out by Arthur?s behaviour, and none of them ran away from Arthur when it was happening (although he did not really seem to notice that they were there, and maybe could not hear them, thought my 4 year old). We thought Grandpa looked a bit tired out by it, which seemed fair enough. Nearer the end, we thought Grandma looked nice and cosy in her rocking chair during Arthur's anger-induced "universequake". True, she was floating through space, but she was wearing the necessary protective equipment (astronaut costume) and basically looked unphased: she was getting on with her knitting. We could imagine our Grandma doing something like that.

At the end of the book, Arthur was calm and peaceful, but all alone on a piece of Mars, which I thought might have looked a bit scary, but apparently it wasn?t at all, because ?probably his mummy and daddy see he is alright now and so it?s ok for them to go?.

So, that was enough for me.

?The other angry book, please,? said my LO.

So then we had ?I feel angry?, which ends with the question, ?What do you do when you feel angry??

?I cry!? shouted my two year old. (She?s right.)

?I hit and be naughty,? said no 1 in a guilty way. ?But I promise I will never do it again.?

I told her that she didn?t need to make any such promise to me, and that I understood, and that it was ok with me if she was ?naughty? when she was angry. I didn't always like it, but I understood.

Which some may judge to be foolish. But if you have followed all of this thread, maybe you can understand why, for me and my little girl, at this point in time, that was the answer that seemed to fit.

We then had Owl Babies, a nice cuddle, and into bed.

:-)

[Belle]

Awww! that's lovely. Def going to order it now.

[susyp]

That's so lovely working mummy thank you for posting.

susypx

[oopsithinkthatwasme]

I'll be getting that too!

[treehugger]

So pleased to hear this.