Should I Stay or should I Go?

[EvaC]

So wrong... I don't work in sales. I recall moving here (long before all these newbies arrived) when Lordship Lane was dead. There was a 7Eleven a hardware store, Iceland,a couple of restaurants and some other insignificant shops and now ED blossomed to what it is now. Of course in the meantime my equity inflated too.

I haven't bought anything yet but I'm trying to demonstrate what I have now and compare the equivalent in another area (i.e. South Norwood). If I move, it would be my second home and of course I want to make a sound decision.

I'm just very curious why the area is cheap when there is decent looking housing. But peeps above have suggested a few reasons why.

Grotty isn't enough to put me off... ED seeemed grotty when I arrived. Sainsbury's used to be wasteland...

[Sue]

EvaC Wrote:

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Sainsbury's used to be

> wasteland...

xxxxxx

It was playing fields, wasn't it?

And Lordship Lane certainly wasn't dead. It had at least one butcher (not the one now there), a jewellers (not the one now there), a toy shop (not the one now there), at least one greengrocer - amongst other things.

[Loz]

It's simple: If you go there will be trouble. If you stay it will be double.

(And I am shocked - shocked! - that no one has posted this yet.)

[Annette Curtain]

Hardship Lane.

[Sue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

[Huggers]

Dalston is completely different. It has some amazing houses, some very very old houses, some picturesque bits, right on top of the city (the closest residential bit to the city besides Bethnal Green area)and some nice parks. It has a history of being posh in it's early days (like Kensington and Islington which both had times down on their luck before they rose again) so it has form. Stoke Newington always looked attractive even when it was rough as dogs.

It also benefited from the overspill from Islington in the eightees' sky high house price rises. There had always been excellent housing stock in Dalston, the east end started to get a bit trendy starting with Bow, and Stoke Newington (dodgy when I lived in Islington in the 80's).

Also Dalston and Hackney had lots of middle class young squatters and artists in the dilapidated council properties that the council showed no intention of doing up and were not habitable for council tenants. When those people grew up/got jobs/diluted their radicalism, they tended to stay in the area, many having the right to buy. And the cafes and hang out places that these consumers wanted had already begun to happen, whether collectively or commercially.

Are any of those perfect storm ingredients present in South Norwood?

[????]

Sainsbury's was DHFC's old ground...a proper full on big stand Football ground FFS, not a wasteland

[EvaC]

I don't know that picture of Dalston... I just recall Kingsland Road and Dalston junction being a s*** hole. And a whole lot worse Peckham.

[malumbu]

I looked round N London and SE London for flats in 1987. I sold a house in quite a nice part of Cheshire, and needed an extra ?10k to get a flat in London (funnily enough the part of Cheshire is now very desirable, if you want Manchester of Liverpool footballers for your neighbours).

So I ignored suggestions to move to Gillingham, or the East End (which then was a place to avoid). In N London (the A10 if I recall right), I'd get a bedroom less, and there was less green space. Many of my viewings took me to S Norwood, and I got to know the roads around the Selhurst Park (one of our two league football teams). It wasn't very special, but Thornton Heath and West Croydon were worse, with the exception of the excellent curry houses and ethnic food shops. South Norwood did have some lovely pubs, one of which (The Goat House) was demolished for flats - shame - and still has intersting restaurants.

I didn't look around East Dulwich as this was rough as hell at the time, and I still recall fundraising once and the 'Hardship Lane' comment - this was less than 15 years ago. In the gentrification that has happened since (aks Dulwich ripples) I think it has lost some of its cutting edge, and is still overpriced.

If the new Overground has not pushed up prices too much then worth checking out SE23 and SE26. For some reason the high streets there cannot mirror Hardship Lane, sorry Lordship Lane, but it has good (if not better) transport links, and the starting up of a bar culture. Honor Oak trys to be a village, although methinks they are mad wanting a Tesco's convenience store. No pubs due to the temperance movement but some nice bars and restaurants.

[Annette Curtain]

I'd say "go" see what happens, and get back to us when it's "happening" or "not happening"

Either way "I told you so" will feature in the conversation.

Next ?

[????]

I see the old 'East Dulwich' was as rough as hell crap again, rubbish Malambu , it wasn't,t gentrified but rough? Behave...

[Jah Lush]

What Quids said.

[the-e-dealer]

Go

[Annette Curtain]

What Jah said

Mind you it was terminally dull, i'll concede that.

[Voyageur]

I rented in ED for a year in 1981 - largely because it was the cheapest area we could find. Rough is probably a bit steep but it was generally pretty run down, absolutely nothing fancy but affordable for student nurses. The pubs were a bit rough and ready but I felt safe enough in the area.

Couldn't believe the difference when I re-visited for the first time about 25 years later. Tried to buy a bottle of balsamic in a deli and came out empty handed and goggle-eyed at the prices! Have lived in Crystal Palace for the last 26 years (cheap as chips when I moved here) and have seen a big shift in the area too (much to many people's horror but I'm not complaining). Mind you, I haven't noticed any shifting in S Norwood....

[Otta]

The gentrification started long before 2000. In the 80s lots of "yuppies" moved in to the area, because it had some decent housing (Friern Road type) at affordable prices, so they moved in and did their houses up very nicely. They were the forerunners of the post 2000 gentrification. It's always been an area for upwardly mobile people to pass through before they can afford the areas they really want.

Meanwhile the rest of us just lived there because it was home. It didn't seem rough as a kid growing up, and it didn't seem genteel either.

I do remember my dad would avoid certain pubs because they were known as slightly less than friendly.

[Chillaxed]

Don't know about that, I'm a so-called newbie and this is the area I really want. Perhaps there are some who see ED as a staging post, but I'd hazard a guess that most do not and many of those that do change their mind after spending a few years here. We came from Chelsea (so downwarldy mobile to use your terminology) and I can say that ED is 10 times better. I walked around ED at dawn a few weekends back and every single person I came across bid me a good morning. No chance of that in SW3.

[LondonMix]

Are you an expat married to someone English?

[Otta]

Chillaxed, obviously I'm not talking for EVERY person who has moved to ED, but I still think there are plenty who will use it as a stepping stone. Lots of families will "do" ED whilst their kids are small, then move on as they get bigger. Others will sell up in the knowledge thatn their Victorian terrace in ED will buy them a massive house elsewhere.

[Chillaxed]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Are you an expat married to someone English?

Expat yes, but married to another expat. But, why?

[LondonMix]

I?m an expat and I have quite a few colleagues etc that live in the general area but all of them are English or expats married to English people (like myself) and that?s how they?ve learned about ED.

From a neighborhood perspective there appears to be only a few types who would live in Chelsea but then move to East Dulwich (it?s not a standard jump). Most of the people I know who live in Chelsea are expats to begin with and either don?t know of other neighborhoods or want to be in the centre for the short while they live in London to take full advantage of the city, which is fair enough. Typically if you already knew the city and were open to living some place like ED, you?d probably have started renting some place less expensive or more edgy to begin with. Most people who live in Chelsea prioritse either being central or being in a very affluent area in my experience. Amongst my friends who?ve lived in Chelsea, the more standard move is Battersea (to remain central) or the greater Richmond area ? East Sheen, Twickenham, Ham, Hampton-- (to keep the sense to twee). None of that is a criticism. I also have friends that live in places I would never consider for a thousand reasons.

[Chillaxed]

Interesting, and you're half right. We actually Googled 'good places to live in London', or maybe 'villages in London', and ED was one of the neighbourhoods mentioned. Being expats we have no family ties so all of London was in scope. We did look at some of the other ?villages? you?d expect to be mentioned (Barnes, Wimbledon, etc) but they didn?t compare to ED on most measures.

We rented a flat in Chelsea and bought a house in ED: same cost (rent v mortgage) more or less. But when I say ED is better than Chelsea I mean better regardless of relative affordability: it's greener, better transport links to the City (give me a seat and an open window on the train over a packed tube any day), better pubs and cafes, more accessible shopping, friendlier (by a country mile), a community spirit (as opposed to none in Chelsea), good state schools with student bodies that reflect wider London, and of course the EDF.

Newbie or upwardly mobile or yuppie or whatever, I love ED and have the middle-class tat fridge badge to prove it!

Back on topic, I can confirm South Norwood did not come up in our internet search for a good, family neighbourhood.

[Jah Lush]

Annette Curtain Wrote:

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> What Jah said

>

> Mind you it was terminally dull, i'll concede

> that.

Quite the opposite. It was certainly livelier and had more interesting characters. Most of newcomers I've met over the years are "terminally dull" in comparison but not all of them. I've met a lot of very nice people too. So no compaints. More ups than downs.

[LondonMix]

Yes, that's my point too. I prefer ED to SW London for the same reasons you do and I dislike Chelsea. However, that's because I value the same things you do and don't really care so much about the things my West London friends do. That's why the move from Chelsea to ED is so unusual because they appeal to totally different kinds of people (not "good" or "bad" just different. With all the money in the world I wouldn't live in Chelsea- I can think of quite a few other places in London that are more appealing. We checked out SW London as well at one point and agree it felt less friendly and more sedate with fewer transport links, a longer commute and quite a bit more expensive. It didn?t feel like good value for money to us either but again, it has to do with our priorities.

Chillaxed Wrote:

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> Interesting, and you're half right. We actually

> Googled 'good places to live in London', or maybe

> 'villages in London', and ED was one of the

> neighbourhoods mentioned. Being expats we have no

> family ties so all of London was in scope. We did

> look at some of the other ?villages? you?d expect

> to be mentioned (Barnes, Wimbledon, etc) but they

> didn?t compare to ED on most measures.

>

> We rented a flat in Chelsea and bought a house in

> ED: same cost (rent v mortgage) more or less. But

> when I say ED is better than Chelsea I mean better

> regardless of relative affordability: it's

> greener, better transport links to the City (give

> me a seat and an open window on the train over a

> packed tube any day), better pubs and cafes, more

> accessible shopping, friendlier (by a country

> mile), a community spirit (as opposed to none in

> Chelsea), good state schools with student bodies

> that reflect wider London, and of course the EDF.

>

>

> Newbie or upwardly mobile or yuppie or whatever, I

> love ED and have the middle-class tat fridge badge

> to prove it!

>

> Back on topic, I can confirm South Norwood did not

> come up in our internet search for a good, family

> neighbourhood.

[camberwell70]

Everyone slagging off South Norwood!

East Dulwich: Row after row of identikit tiny little rabbit hutch houses.