Please help the campaign Fair Air for East Dulwich

[malumbu]

But why the sudden interest now? - why not ten, twenty or thirty years ago when air pollution was much worse? Clean Air in London have been around for ten years or more - see their ten tips on air quality https://cleanair.london/solutions/10-steps-for-clean-air-in-london/

Client Earth have been taking on government over air quality for a similar length of time and have been successful in the courts in getting government to meet legal air quality limits. There is a bigger picture/world beyond SE22.

[Metallic]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But why the sudden interest now? - why not ten,

> twenty or thirty years ago when air pollution was

> much worse? Clean Air in London have been around

> for ten years or more - see their ten tips on air

> quality

> https://cleanair.london/solutions/10-steps-for-cle

> an-air-in-london/

>

> Client Earth have been taking on government over

> air quality for a similar length of time and have

> been successful in the courts in getting

> government to meet legal air quality limits.

> There is a bigger picture/world beyond SE22.

Unless you live or walk on Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove. Come off it.

[alice]

Malumbo again I suggest your posts would be better placed in the lounge. Here is the correct location for east dulwich matters.

[Nigello]

Fair Air - cleaner air is only achievable if fewer emissions are made, which means fewer journeys. It is up to you, fundamentally, if you own a motor vehicle of any kind and, to a much lesser extent, use taxis and delivery services, if you want to have fewer noxious particles in the air/people's lungs.

[malumbu]

My points, Nigello's and others are valid Alice. What are you doing to reduce emissions? When did you become interested in air quality? I hope you have been playing your part but I worry that most aren't. The angry chap ranting on the Jeremy Vine programme sadly seems typical of many. The local listener that called in and said about the difficulties in driving to Tommies neglected to say that congestion towards Lambeth bridge has been dreadful for the last decade, this was my normal (cycle) commute, and this has nothing to do with LTNs, but the number of vehicles on the road.

This is a social media site which is for debate as well as information. Please feel free to debate with me my points above and elsewhere. I welcome open debate. I recognise the ginormous changes in personal mobility and freedom that the car brought in the 50s and 60s. But we can no longer think like this if we really care about the environment and our fellow citizens.

A great example. LTNs causing traffic jams. Yes a worry. Jams by schools. Yes a worry. Traffic idling in the jams. TURN YOUR BLOODY ENGINE OFF. I think that is the first time I've used capitals to emphasise a point.

[alice]

You say improving air will take place by some sort of bottom up approach. loads of individuals making certain changes. that sounds a bit like thatcher when she said there's no such thing as society. Bottom up is not enough it must work in unison with a top down approach [government, council] which does not favour the needs of the already healthy, the already rich.

I never listened to Vine's show but when you describe a caller as 'angry and ranting' it shows you are not really interested in debate.

The local issue is very clear. Walk down lordship past the lordship lane estate the fumes are sickening. Look down he glorious boulevard of court lane. 1 bike and a pram. The inequity of this particular LTN is astonishing and bringing in a generalist argument about the environment does not work. But I congratulate you this is definitely my longest post ever.

[Rockets]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> My points, Nigello's and others are valid Alice.

> What are you doing to reduce emissions? When did

> you become interested in air quality? I hope you

> have been playing your part but I worry that most

> aren't. The angry chap ranting on the Jeremy Vine

> programme sadly seems typical of many. The local

> listener that called in and said about the

> difficulties in driving to Tommies neglected to

> say that congestion towards Lambeth bridge has

> been dreadful for the last decade, this was my

> normal (cycle) commute, and this has nothing to do

> with LTNs, but the number of vehicles on the

> road.

>

> This is a social media site which is for debate as

> well as information. Please feel free to debate

> with me my points above and elsewhere. I welcome

> open debate. I recognise the ginormous changes in

> personal mobility and freedom that the car brought

> in the 50s and 60s. But we can no longer think

> like this if we really care about the environment

> and our fellow citizens.

>

> A great example. LTNs causing traffic jams. Yes

> a worry. Jams by schools. Yes a worry. Traffic

> idling in the jams. TURN YOUR BLOODY ENGINE OFF.

> I think that is the first time I've used capitals

> to emphasise a point.

Malumbu - you are somewhat conflicted aren't you? You challenge everyone and anyone on what they are doing to limit their impact on climate change yet you talk about owning an old car.

I think you will find that everyone is much like you, they are doing their bit and making significant changes to their habits and lifestyle but, like you, they do need a car for those journeys that cannot be walked or cycled. Please stop trying to paint those who challenge you or disagree with you as some sort of climate change deniers.

Also you said "we can no longer think like this if we really care about the environment and our fellow citizens". We all agree with you on that which is why we are fighting to get the LTNs removed as they are bad for the environment and bad for our fellow citizens.

[FairTgirl]

If you look at census data it has 70% social housing residents on Grove Vale, 63% BAME residents.

If you ask the businesses they are 60% BAME businesses on Grove Vale, 60% BAME businesses on Melbourne Grove. Lordship Lane estimate 50% BAME businesses.

But isn't the crowdfunder about finding out what is happening with air quality in the area and if problems are being created that are currently not being monitored so they can be addressed? Which surely benefits everyone? Especially schools and nurseries.

[malumbu]

Not at all conflicted. Avoid unnecessary car journeys. Factor the environment into my decisions. And the benefits of active travel. And preach this from any available soap box. I feel too many of you seem to want to blame others, or come up with barriers, rather than do similar to me.

FairTgirl I've posted a number of other organisations that I have time for who campaign on air quality, and on the environment. The game plan is to reduce the number of cars on the road, and sadly to do this you have to bring in some inconvenience and/or cost as a stick to get people out of their cars. Leaving more space on the roads for other forms of transport and those that really need to drive or be in a car/van/lorry/emergency vehicle etc. All these schemes take time to bed in and change behaviours.

I haven't done any modelling of the LTNs in Southwark, Lewisham and elsewhere, this affects me too. Others can spend time analysing traffic flows and come up with different schemes.

Actually if I was conflicted it was on air travel. But Covid has put a hold on that for the time being and this is a separate topic for a separate thread. Oh and on Amazon, but I find beating myself up is the best remedy when I am occasionally 'forced' to use them.

[nxjen]

?If you look at census data it has 70% social housing residents on Grove Vale, 63% BAME residents.?

Thank you for this, I have been trying unsuccessfully to find the census data. Would it be possible to post a link and for Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Grove to get the overall picture?

Edit: OK, I?ve found data from the 2011 census but this is presented in groups of postcodes rather than streets so it doesn?t appear to be possible to extrapolate data for individual streets. If you know of a website where this is possible do please post a link. Nevertheless, I looked at a couple of randomly chosen subsets and none of the residential figures came close to the quoted figures. The only place nearby with higher figures, though not as high as quoted, is the Dog Kennel Hill Estate which is not on Grove Vale.

Either way, these figures are now 10 years old and cannot be regarded as accurate.

Regarding the businesses in Grove Vale, does this figure relate to the number of BAME owned businesses or does it include the total number of people who work there e.g Kwikfit, M&S, the timber yard etc

[malumbu]

Here's another group that you may wish to consider joining: https://www.livingstreets.org.uk/about-us/our-organisation

And a relevant article from them: https://www.livingstreets.org.uk/policy-and-resources/our-policy/walkable-neighbourhoods. You might not agree, but give it a read.

[legalalien]

I don?t think Living Streets need any more supporters here - the chair of their London campaigning arm seems to be a de facto councillor, coopted to various committees and advising the scrutiny committee on what their work programme should be, if I?m not mistaken.

[FairTgirl]

Speaking on behalf of Grove Vale and MG North businesses - the figures I mentioned were for BAME owned businesses or managed business in a survey taken late last year - employees may well take it higher as many of us have BAME employees and in many instances the business and employees are entirely BAME.

You can check the individual postcodes related to the relevant roads to get a picture of the census data for residents and social housing.

It is great to see the crowdfunder has almost reached its target in 5 days.

[nxjen]

"You can check the individual postcodes related to the relevant roads to get a picture of the census data for residents and social housing."

It's not as easy as that. For example, I inputted SE22 8EQ the postcode for Kwikfit. As you will see, it brought up a page that includes data for other postcodes, some of these are in Grove Vale, others are not , and some postcodes that are in Grove Vale are missing. There is not just one group/page that covers all of Grove Vale. Anyway, that aside, let's have a look at the data which says regarding ethnic group:

White: English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish/British 48.8679%

White: Irish 3.2075%

White: Gypsy or Irish Traveller 0%

White: Other White 14.5283%

which gives a total of roughly 66%. For white ethnicity.

Then it gives the breakdown for other ethnicities and I haven't checked the overall total but assume it comes to 100%.

https://www.ukcensusdata.com/south-camberwell-e00020408#sthash.eQIvWjat.dpbs

So perhaps you can see why I have a problem with your quoted figure.

If you have another link for stats related just to the whole of Grove Vale, then, as I've requested before, please post.

[ab29]

Excellent - donated :)

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ab29 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What is the plan - to install some monitoring

> on

> > the affected roads?

> >

> > Metallic Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > >

> >

> https://www.gofundme.com/f/east-dulwich-community-

>

> >

> > >

> >

> clean-air?utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1&utm_mediu

>

> >

> > > m=social&utm_source=twitter

> > >

> > > Everyone who lives here, works here, children

> > who

> > > walk to school here, we all need air quality

> > > monitoring!! The Council are not assessing

> it,

> > > yet all we see are the traffic jams and fumes

> > > caused by displaced vehicles, with the

> > residents

> > > of LTNs sitting pretty whilst the rest choke.

>

> Yes it is the plan

[smooch]

I a supporting this - BAME stuff not relevant tbh - all children/families walking to most local schools horribly affected by increased pollution

alot of primary schools and nursery schools negatively affected

alot of secondary schools - state and private negatively affected

Any homes/houses on the main roads negatively affected

Patients attending (in particular - tessa jowell health centre) appointments negatively affected

businesses in east dulwich/dulwich village negatively afftected

emergency health services attending any sort of emergency (let alone life threatening) negatively affected

police ability to attend incidences negatively affected.

cyclists finding routes more dangerous and more polluted (thats me BTW)

long standing local businesses trying to make a living - negatively affected

public walking up and down LL shopping negatively affected

REALLY looking forward to any councillor /politcal rep knocking on my door....

[heartblock]

I?m very much looking forward to the next election campaign.... I think they will avoid knocking on any doors in EDG, Croxted or LL. I have always voted Labour or Green, this time I?ll vote for anyone who thinks consultation should concentrate on those residents who may be negatively affected by any proposed actions and who act in a way that does not create inequalities and rifts between neighbourhoods.

[legalalien]

I've posted this on a couple of other threads but for completeness here's a link I just found where you can preregister to receive info about the review of the Dulwich, East Dulwich and Champion Hill closures.

https://consultations.southwark.gov.uk/environment-leisure/dulwich-review-registration-form/

[mako]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Research currently under peer review into equity

> of LTN's across London -

> https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/q87fu/

>

> Highlights:

> - LTN's more often in deprived areas

> - BAME residents slightly more likely to live in

> LTN than white residents

> - LTN's varied widely

> - LTN demographically nearly idnetiifcal to

> surrounding areas

is this the research done by Rachel Aldred, previously the policy director of LCC who is now put up to assess her own policies -the policies she spent 6 years campaigning for?

[alice]

What may be true of some other LTNs is not true of Dulwich LTNs.

[mako]

Yes fairy pointless research to use when discussing a particular LTN where these things are obviously not the case. Not sure there's many ways you could manipulate data to make Court Lane 'deprived' or 'identical;' to surrounding areas.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Metallic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://www.gofundme.com/f/east-dulwich-community-

> clean-air?utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1&utm_mediu

> m=social&utm_source=twitter

>

> Everyone who lives here, works here, children who

> walk to school here, we all need air quality

> monitoring!! The Council are not assessing it,

> yet all we see are the traffic jams and fumes

> caused by displaced vehicles, with the residents

> of LTNs sitting pretty whilst the rest choke.

Maybe efforts to reduce pollution and congestion would be better served through campaigns for road pricing schemes, smaller, less polluting vehicles, bike lanes or better public transport etc., rather than ones which want to making it easier and more convenient for people to drive locally and to use side streets as cut throughs.

[malumbu]

In deed. Road user charging. But can you imagine the backlash? Need to reverse decades of 'car first'. I'm repeating myself. Whilst I was bringing in road user charging I'd also bring in average speed cameras. Can you imagine the backlash? Southwark making zillons on Brenchley Gardens.

"rah-rah" Rahrahrah

[for avoidance of doubt I am advocating both road user charging, and average speed cameras but understand that the majority of 'entitled' motorists would oppose both]

[first mate]

Still cannot believe you continue to own and use a car Malambu.

[SE22_2020er]

Bring on the extension of the congestion charge as soon as we've got the ULEZ installed. Sure you can pollute the streets by driving if you want to, but you have to pay for it.

Use the money raised to install cycle lanes and improve public transport.

Thereby, the polluters pay for the damage that they are causing and they themselves tip the scales to more people using public transport and active travel.