V angry four year old

[WorkingMummy]

My 4 year old was very angry with me today over something I wouldn't let her do. At one point, after hitting me a bit (she does that occasionally, I ignore it generally) she yelled at me at the top of her voice, "I want to make you dead!" She really meant it, too.

Anyone had this?

[Saffron]

Walking home one evening with our ~3 year old, she was wailing at the top of her lungs, "I hate my parents!" It's an emotional short circuit. Agreed, best to ignore. You can talk about it later when your LO has calmed down. Very frustrating at the time, though! xx

[susyp]

mine recently said - i won't let you be my mummy anymore. I pointed out she didn't have a lot of choice!

susypx

[canela]

just see it as practice for the teenage years

[womanofdulwich]

ditto

[Ole]

Yesterday my son (3 years) wailed 'I don't want you mummy' all through Greenwich.

[GinaG3]

Well guess what, my daughter (4 in 2 weeks I might add) hates me 50% of the time too. She hates her dad 75% of the time. When he comes in the door from work after a 12 hour shift, its 'go back to work dad, I don't love you'. When I picked her up from school the other day it was 'I don't want to live with you anymore mum, I going to live here'

She is very angry and pretty violent on a every other day basis, she thinks she owns the place!

Terrible two, no.

Terrible three, yes.

Four, I live in hope!

[WorkingMummy]

Well, that's all reassuring and familiar. I want to make you dead is still a shock though.

I have found an interesting website that recommends play wrestling with your child as a way to connect with a "spirited" child. I tried it this evening. It was amazing! She hit me a lot at bath time and I put her in her room so that I could care for her siblings without having to cope with her violence. But when I was able to let her out again, instead of lecturing her, I got on the floor and said, in a fun way, "you want to hit me? come on then!" The result was immediate transformation from conflict and screaming (by her that is, not me) to fun and laughter (for us both). I'll do that again.

[Fuschia]

The child brain goes through huge changes as it matures and there are stages when the child makes huge leaps in their ability to handle emotion. Struggling with their own anger must be very scary for them. Obviously she has no idea even what it really means for someone to die. That throw Away comment will hAve meant something quite different to you than it did to the child who uttered it...of course she doesn't want you to die

Fantastic book about the brain

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Parenting-Margot-Sunderland/dp/075663993X/ref=la_B001H6GF82_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1358118961&sr=1-8

[Saffron]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, that's all reassuring and familiar. I want

> to make you dead is still a shock though.

>

> I have found an interesting website that

> recommends play wrestling with your child as a way

> to connect with a "spirited" child. I tried it

> this evening. It was amazing! She hit me a lot at

> bath time and I put her in her room so that I

> could care for her siblings without having to cope

> with her violence. But when I was able to let her

> out again, instead of lecturing her, I got on the

> floor and said, in a fun way, "you want to hit me?

> come on then!" The result was immediate

> transformation from conflict and screaming (by her

> that is, not me) to fun and laughter (for us

> both). I'll do that again.

I sometimes use this kind of "channelling" with my friend's little boy who is very spiritied. He likes to throw things and has hit both me and my daughter in the face with hard toys, despite actually being a lovely little boy. He gets very angry and frustrated when he's not allowed to throw anything (he's 3+ yrs). So instead of working against the behaviour, I work with it. We put away all the hard toys and only play with plush teddies. We make a game out of trying to score goals in the laundry basket. It gets a great response, very happy little boy.

Do you have a link for the website with play wrestling info? I'd love to read it! xx

[WorkingMummy]

Yes, Saffron, that is exactly what I mean. Why had I not thought of that before?

I got the idea from "wildest colts" .com. The psychologist behind it is called John breeding and his book which I am now reading on Kindle is called "the wildest colts make the best horses". His main objective seems to be protecting "spirited" kids from diagnosis as ADHD and drugging. I don't think my LO is in danger of that. But still, I'm finding his work approach helpful.

[esme]

I've had "i'll chop your head off" but hey he's only 2 so I imagine by 4 will be pretty similar stuff! this has reduced since monitoring more of what he watches on TV :) (hmm should I admit to letting him watch Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles now and again LOL)

[Mrs TP]

I developed a phrase along the lines of 'you don't have to like me but I am your mummy, I love you very much and it is my job to look after you and I am going to do that the best way I can. I look after you, keep you safe, get you to school on time and to make sure you behave. You might not like it but that is my job.'

I would often make this into a much longer speech and generally they would stare at me dumbfounded and we would carry on.

However, doesn't always work and we have had the complete meltdowns.

[WorkingMummy]

I have a speech exactly like that, although when coming from me it's definitely a lecture. But it really only makes things worse. She knows full well that hitting etc is not good. And part of what happens when she totally melts down is that she is overcome with shame, which obviously she can't cope with and redirects at me, in more hitting and the whole thing just drags her downwards into a horrid hole. And of course, sometimes I cannot be perfectly patient so I snap (like a dinosaur, says my four year old) which scares her.

I really highly recommend this totally radical (for me at least) approach of working with the behaviour. It achieves an awful lot in a very short time. About five times since I first posted I've said to her, "oh, so you need a FIGHT? (Light hearted voice.) come on then. Can you take me?" And it's brilliant. She sees that I get what she is feeling, that I don't condemn her, that I'm big enough to take it, that Minot afraid of the feelings overwhelming her, I protect myself from pointless frustration and grief, and we get to have fun. If during the play fight her bad feelings come up again, we just stop and talk about it, but without the hyper charged atmosphere. (I absolutely would not use this technique to ridicule her anger, as that would be awful.)

It also occurs to me that if she were a boy she'd get this kind of release a lot from my husband and her male relatives .

[Oggie]

Hi, I went through this with my child and was given a very good book called "There's a Volcano in my Tummy" which has simple exercises to do with young children to help them understand and label their emotions. Highly recommend it.

[chantelle]

my son said those exact words "i want to make you dead" several months ago and I was pretty shocked! It only happened the one time. Your technique around hitting sounds interesting and like a good way to defuse the situation. I have had some success saying - oh are you going to hit mummy? is that what you want to do? - to get him to think about what's playing out and get his feelings back under control.

[WorkingMummy]

Chantelle, that's useful. I don't have time for a play fight every time she gets angry, so I'll definitely try that too. Anything is better than the absolute futility of simply saying no. Anything which takes away the tabbo and changes the atmosphere from conflict to connection.

[RenF]

For some reason the technique you described reminded me of an article in the guardian from last year:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/sep/22/oliver-james-love-bombing-children

I know James is occasionally seen as controversial but though this was another interesting way of helping your child to manage their emotions.

[WorkingMummy]

Thanks RenF. I've read the article and really like it. John Breeding's website also recommends this kind of thing too. He calls it "Special Time", during which, as far as possible, you let the child be in charge. I think you can do it with much younger kids and toddlers too, just by getting on the floor with the child and then doing whatever they say.

Another technique I've now got from the same source is called "listen limit listen". That's about saying no/setting a boundary but continuing to listen to (and even mirror) the child 's desire, chilling out about their expression of disappointment/frustrstion (or here in our house, v angry four year old rage).

[WorkingMummy]

Links are:

http://www.wildestcolts.com/parenting.html

and the parenting videos on

http://www.wildestcolts.com/video.html

[WorkingMummy]

chantelle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> my son said those exact words "i want to make you

> dead" several months ago and I was pretty shocked!

> It only happened the one time. Your technique

> around hitting sounds interesting and like a good

> way to defuse the situation. I have had some

> success saying - oh are you going to hit mummy? is

> that what you want to do? - to get him to think

> about what's playing out and get his feelings back

> under control.

Chantelle, thanks so much for this tip. I said I'd try it and I did. It was really helpful. So, she started kicking off (literally) and I said, "o, so you want to kick mummy? Yes I see that!" It worked so well in calming her down I went further and asked her, in a calm voice, "is there anything else you'd like to do to me? TELL me about it." She SMILED (not what she usually does in the middle of her white hot rage) and said, "I'd like to pull your glasses off your face and SNAP them!!!" Which I think we could call healthily self-expressed! She then got on with getting undressed for her bath (which is all I was asking of her when she started) very nicely.

[nubby'smums]

Very reassured to read this. My four year old son is also often angry - mostly around having his teeth brushed/getting ready for school or bed etc. We do a lot of wrestling with him but not necessarily when he's angry. Was worried it was encouraging him to be more aggressive but maybe if we did it when he was angry he'd channel those feelings. I mainly end up threatening to take away toys/treats etc and he often stops and apologises but its short lived and he gets angry again when I try to get him to do the next thing he doesn't want to.

Thanks so much for the book recommendations - have ordered them.

[oopsithinkthatwasme]

this is a fascinating post to me and is making me think a lot about my own parenting.

I don't let my 4 year old son hit me when he's angry or any time. He does get angry quite a lot (boys have a testosterone surge at 4 & 14yrs and it affects their emotions quite a bit)and he does occassioanly hit me, albeit gently, if he's really cross. I put him on time out for any physical aggression towards me and we use the 'say it with words' or 'draw a picture' of how angry you feel, to let out the anger.

reading through this I am questioning whether I am too hard on him.... i certainly don't want to make him afraid of his anger. i'm just worried ashis dad doesn't live with us, that hitting might continue when he's bigger and become a problem if i let it happen. anyone know if it's something children naturally grow out of?

thank you

[WorkingMummy]

I think those concerns are really valid and I share them. I also think that each parent has to work out what is best for them and their child.

I think the idea behind this concept (which is not for all) is that you teach your children best and most surely by being a role model, rather than by finger wagging or trying to "fix" or change the child. So your child will learn that it is not ok to hit people because YOU do not - in fact - go around hitting people to get what you want. There is also an idea behind it, based in eastern philosophies I think, that growth and change (including growing out of hitting mummy) is a natural and inevitable process which happens by itself if the conditions are right. And that paradoxically, the best condition for growth and change for any human, including a little one, is an environment of being accepted exactly as you are, warts and all, not being lectured and told to be different. Just, do nothing, let the tree grow, kind of thing. A third idea is that many of the things that as parents we find hardest to deal with, the challenging stuff, is actually a sign of good development, for example, of a child's intense human need for self determination and desire for independence. That's not to say that you simply indulge the child's every whim. Just when the child is kicking off at you because you won't or can't give them what they want, you try to bring a positive perspective to that and let it be, rather than see it as a discipline issue and punish or try to control it.

I do not think this means that you have to be ok with your son hitting you in anger. You are allowed to have your own boundaries too! And from a purely practical point of view, if (like me) you go through periods of dealing with challenging physical behaviour a lot of the time, and have other things to do or other children to care for too, you cannot possibly always (or even usually) respond by getting on the floor and channelling the child's energies. Plus the specific suggestion of a play fight will not always be authentic coming from you. It's only natural that, sometimes, when your child hits you, no matter how hard you tell yourself, "he's only four, he's only four" you may be a bit p'd off yourself! And a play fight that channelled the adult's anger might not be so good! But as one idea to reach for on occasions when it feels right to you, to connect with the child, my short experience of this idea is that it is GREAT. It probably only needs to happen on occasions for your child to take away a lot of love and acceptance from it anyway.

You will absolutely not be giving the child the idea that hitting in anger is ok. A play fight is a completely different vibe from that. Its fun. If you try to difuse your child's anger by suggesting one and they don't click into it being fun, but just want to use you as a punch bag, I would personally not go for that! I could see that somepeople might but not me I don't think.

I also think play wrestling, pillow fights, knocking stuff about with plastic bats, could be a great way to connect and have fun with a "lively" child when they are NOT in the midst of a storm.

As you can see, I have had cause to think a lot about this. At the moment, I seem to be devoting a lot of my energy to trying to work it through, and this forum is great for that. But ultimately, who knows?? Do your best, be yourself. Have confidence in your child's innate abilty to learn and grow. It'll be ok.

Edited to put a ps to oppsithinkitwasme: just want to make absolutely clear, none of the things you describe yourself as doing, sound to me like you are in danger of making your son afraid of his anger. Quite the opposite. XX

[chantelle]

just came back to thread and happy to see you had some success with my tip!