School Places

[akc74]

It definitely happens - bit gutting. Though we are over 900m (and 49th on the waiting list) and at that distance we

sort of knew it was unlikely (funny how you slightly delude yourself though)

[RoundTable]

Straight up Wrote:

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> We?ve also missed out on our first choice of ED

> Charter, live just under 800m away. I am hearing

> through friends about families who own houses

> further afield in East Dulwich renting nearer to

> the school to get in. This is all hearsay at the

> moment so don't know if it's true or not but if my

> son misses out on a place due to this happening I

> will be furious! Does anyone know do the school

> or Southwark council investigate / do checks for

> admissions cheats?

They check, but here is what happens:

if you pay council tax in Southwark, then Southwark are able to check if you already live here and so if you are just renting a second home to get in. If you move in from a different borough, then since councils don?t share council tax data then they can?t prove it. It is an open secret that people move nearby from 12 months to get a space, particularly from outside Southwark, and then move out again. And that?s them plus all their siblings. There are threads about this in the forum.

[RoundTable]

When the estate on greendale gets built, that will become a cash cow for rental properties to get into either charter. Unless Southwark do something about it, except they can?t, because when they gave permission to build charter east they did not insist on a clause giving preference to children in local primary schools (as is the case in a lot of boroughs increasingly, because they anticipate such problem).

[Ossito]

We noticed when looking at schools in neighbouring Boroughs that Lambeth have a new Harris Secondary, which prioritises the local primary school. Not sure if this is a one off, but an interesting approach.

https://www.harrisclapham.org.uk/156/academy-admissions

[Straight up]

Thanks for this - very interesting! The families I've been told about supposedly already live in Southwark so it should flag up hopefully!

I did look for old threads but couldn't find any - maybe put the wrong wording in the search!

RoundTable Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Straight up Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We?ve also missed out on our first choice of ED

> > Charter, live just under 800m away. I am

> hearing

> > through friends about families who own houses

> > further afield in East Dulwich renting nearer

> to

> > the school to get in. This is all hearsay at

> the

> > moment so don't know if it's true or not but if

> my

> > son misses out on a place due to this happening

> I

> > will be furious! Does anyone know do the

> school

> > or Southwark council investigate / do checks

> for

> > admissions cheats?

>

> They check, but here is what happens:

>

> if you pay council tax in Southwark, then

> Southwark are able to check if you already live

> here and so if you are just renting a second home

> to get in. If you move in from a different

> borough, then since councils don?t share council

> tax data then they can?t prove it. It is an open

> secret that people move nearby from 12 months to

> get a space, particularly from outside Southwark,

> and then move out again. And that?s them plus all

> their siblings. There are threads about this in

> the forum.

[hellosailor]

I don?t understand how this would work tho?

You?re saying that the secondary schools should give priority to the children at their nearest primary? Regardless of whether those kids are the ones living closest as the crow flies to the school? Even if they?ve moved miles away since their kids started primary school? Do you think they would be fairer? So if you got your kids into a primary school and moved a couple of miles away during the primary years, the fact that they attend the primary school geographically nearest to your favoured secondary school should mean they?re prioritised? I think that would be extremely controversial.

RoundTable Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When the estate on greendale gets built, that will

> become a cash cow for rental properties to get

> into either charter. Unless Southwark do something

> about it, except they can?t, because when they

> gave permission to build charter east they did not

> insist on a clause giving preference to children

> in local primary schools (as is the case in a lot

> of boroughs increasingly, because they anticipate

> such problem).

[scarlettbanks]

How about reporting those that cheat the system to the authorities? I know that might feel uncomfortable, but I think it?s very challenging for the school (or the council) to catch anyone - especially if they have a common surname, or if they use their maiden name on one property etc. I really think something needs to be done - maybe a dedicated council email address would help - might also discourage people from trying this in the future - make it clear that those who get caught lose their school place

[RoundTable]

search for ?Renters Row? thread in the archive

[hellosailor]

.

[scarlettbanks]

By the way, for those panicking about future years - I?ve heard that in the coming years the distance for Charter ED should increase.

-60 extra places (from 2022 or 2023 I think - see other thread). We have a friend that lives 1000+ metres away and is fifty-something on the waiting list (so would have got in if 60 extra kids were admitted)

-Plus the current 2021 intake (and previous few years) have been big intakes across Southwark and East Dulwich in particular (needed lots of bulge classes in 2011-2013 primary schools admissions etc, so this was expected). The demographic has changed so over next few years (and beyond even more so) there will be fewer Year 7 aged children living (and applying) in East Dulwich

- plus this year (and last) was probably ?peak sibling?, since lots of ?older siblings? applied to Charter ED in its first 2 years (?younger siblings? less likely to apply since they would have followed whatever school their older sibling already attended), and now the younger siblings of these older siblings taking up charter ED place

Still think we need a firm system to discourage and catch people cheating the system!

[hellosailor]

Genuine question - In what has the demographic changed and less year 7 kids living in ED will be applying to Charter ED going forwards? I don?t understand the reasoning?

[Ossito]

I don?t see how it?s any less fair than enabling those with deep enough pockets to rent a nearby house for a year to get better access to schools of their choice. The Clapham in Harris is only in its second year, so presumably the Local Authority must have been happy with that admission criteria to give it planning permission.

[scarlettbanks]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Genuine question - In what has the demographic

> changed and less year 7 kids living in ED will be

> applying to Charter ED going forwards? I don?t

> understand the reasoning?

It's just that the number of families with young children has decreased over time. I.e. in East Dulwich schools the 2011-2013 primary school intakes had more kids than the 2014-2016 primary school intakes, which in turn had more kids than the 2017-2019 primary school intakes. You would expect to see the same thing for East Dulwich secondary schools, but with a 7-year delay.

I'm not sure why the number of families with young children has decreased over time. I guess East Dulwich is more expensive than it was 10-15 years ago, and so fewer young parents are able to move here now.

[Gesundheit]

Just wondering if anyone has experience of being on Charter's waiting list... My daughter's quite high up on it and I'd love to get an idea of when they start letting people know if they can offer a place. Or do you have to get in touch to find out?

Thanks!

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Those offered a space at Charter have until the 31st March to submit documents to accept the offer so I?m assuming movements on the waiting list will happen from then onwards, though parents can email to decline the space prior to that.

Gesundheit Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just wondering if anyone has experience of being

> on Charter's waiting list... My daughter's quite

> high up on it and I'd love to get an idea of when

> they start letting people know if they can offer a

> place. Or do you have to get in touch to find

> out?

>

> Thanks!

[akc74]

I was under the impression the first big shakedown of lists would be happening between initial allocations and next Monday 15th, when I think we get updated waiting list positions.

I may start a separate thread in due course when I know more about waiting lists, but in the meantime am interested in hearing from anyone via DM who has been allocated HBAED.

[northernmonkey]

Its quite clear that the fairer way for this to work would be for the Charter Schools to remove their sibling priority unless either sibling has SEN where this would make it necessary to take them to school.

Secondary school age children are expected to travel independently - and if they could go to a local school this would be even easier.

In addition, before TCSED was built, for those locally who didn't get a place at Charter North, the option was Harris Boys and Harris Girls. Why is it so crucial that siblings go to the same Charter School, but totally fine to split them up you you have boy / girl siblings otherwise?

The sibling place priority encourages the behavior being complained about - where people with 3 - 4 kids move out once the first has a place but then continue to travel in for the next 10 years!

[Caroline_S]

We have a place at Harris Boys and are very pleased - will DM you akc74. We are very lucky to have several brilliant schools on our doorstep in East Dulwich - Charter certainly isn?t the only option!

akc74 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was under the impression the first big shakedown

> of lists would be happening between initial

> allocations and next Monday 15th, when I think we

> get updated waiting list positions.

> I may start a separate thread in due course when I

> know more about waiting lists, but in the meantime

> am interested in hearing from anyone via DM who

> has been allocated HBAED.

[Cora]

Mmmm...we have been offered a place but haven?t been told anything about needing to provide any paperwork yet? Our offer just says it assumes we are accepting the place unless we tell them we are not...have I missed something?

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

The email doesn?t say we need to submit paperwork but the official letter does. I received a letter on Monday saying I had until March 31st to submit a council tax letter, child benefit letter and passport/birth certificate via email or I would essentially lose the place and that I could email to decline the space.

Cora Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mmmm...we have been offered a place but haven?t

> been told anything about needing to provide any

> paperwork yet? Our offer just says it assumes we

> are accepting the place unless we tell them we are

> not...have I missed something?

[RoundTable]

Caroline_S Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We have a place at Harris Boys and are very

> pleased - will DM you akc74. We are very lucky to

> have several brilliant schools on our doorstep in

> East Dulwich - Charter certainly isn?t the only

> option!

>

> akc74 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I was under the impression the first big

> shakedown

> > of lists would be happening between initial

> > allocations and next Monday 15th, when I think

> we

> > get updated waiting list positions.

> > I may start a separate thread in due course when

> I

> > know more about waiting lists, but in the

> meantime

> > am interested in hearing from anyone via DM who

> > has been allocated HBAED.

How far away are you from Harris? Since they have not done banding and all based on distance I?d be interested to know how far out it went.

[Caroline_S]

We?re about 400m from HBAED but I have friends slightly further (about 900m) who also got places.

[DuncanW]

Northern Monkey, I think you could be on to something there!

I would suggest that such a change might be borough-wide, rather than just at one or two, currently popular schools. This has been done in two other London Boroughs, Brent and Wandsworth a few years back.

As well as making school admissions fairer, it should have a positive effect on traffic/pollution in the area. It may take some of the heat out of property prices in the area if people no longer rent short-term in catchment. There may be other benefits around levelling up the desirability of other local schools.

I would be genuinely interested to hear any arguments against doing this, maybe it deserves it's own thread as if people are interested in discussing this idea, it would take this one away from the intended topic.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

If the sibling priority is removed but not the catchment then I agree totally as I do know of people who had a kid in a Dulwich school, moved to a bigger house in Crystal Palace etc when they had more children but still commuted to Dulwich for their other children to attend the schools here, sibling priority should only apply if they are still within the catchment.

northernmonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Its quite clear that the fairer way for this to

> work would be for the Charter Schools to remove

> their sibling priority unless either sibling has

> SEN where this would make it necessary to take

> them to school.

>

> Secondary school age children are expected to

> travel independently - and if they could go to a

> local school this would be even easier.

>

> In addition, before TCSED was built, for those

> locally who didn't get a place at Charter North,

> the option was Harris Boys and Harris Girls. Why

> is it so crucial that siblings go to the same

> Charter School, but totally fine to split them up

> you you have boy / girl siblings otherwise?

>

> The sibling place priority encourages the behavior

> being complained about - where people with 3 - 4

> kids move out once the first has a place but then

> continue to travel in for the next 10 years!

[gebbjane]

Totally agree with this - I?ve heard of some schools that have siblings in catchment, then catchment as their policy. So if you move out of the area and you are applying for a sibling the application is considered by distance only - the sibling is given no pirority.

peolDulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If the sibling priority is removed but not t

> catchment then I agree totally as I do know of

> people who had a kid in a Dulwich school, moved to

> a bigger house in Crystal Palace etc when they had

> more children but still commuted to Dulwich for

> their other children to attend the schools here,

> sibling priority should only apply if they are

> still within the catchment.

>

>

> northernmonkey Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Its quite clear that the fairer way for this to

> > work would be for the Charter Schools to remove

> > their sibling priority unless either sibling

> has

> > SEN where this would make it necessary to take

> > them to school.

> >

> > Secondary school age children are expected to

> > travel independently - and if they could go to

> a

> > local school this would be even easier.

> >

> > In addition, before TCSED was built, for those

> > locally who didn't get a place at Charter

> North,

> > the option was Harris Boys and Harris Girls.

> Why

> > is it so crucial that siblings go to the same

> > Charter School, but totally fine to split them

> up

> > you you have boy / girl siblings otherwise?

> >

> > The sibling place priority encourages the

> behavior

> > being complained about - where people with 3 -

> 4

> > kids move out once the first has a place but

> then

> > continue to travel in for the next 10 years!