light the blue touch paper...

[Jah Lush]

Fecking students!

[snorky]

keele was just a tool to avoid wage slavery for another few years

[mockney piers]

I love you too Jah.

it was best part of two decades ago!!

Quite snorky, quite.

Though I kind of regret not having done more studying now, and spent less time in the pub, down by the lakes or in Shelly's and Kinetic.

[snorky]

lalalala

[snorky]

keele was only one of a variety of work avoidance tactics

[SteveT]

To all students in debt.

I was talking to a lady friend who had a 5k student loan outstanding 5 years after she had completed her degree. She was concerned that she didn't earn enough to repay it.

My advice was to repay the minimum, or none if that is an option, and let inflation erode it like a mortgage gets cheaper after 4 years or so. Eventually it will become loose change, even though there is interest liable, it is still economically sound to let it be.

[HonaloochieB]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To all students in debt.

> I was talking to a lady friend who had a 5k

> student loan outstanding 5 years after she had

> completed her degree. She was concerned that she

> didn't earn enough to repay it.

> My advice was to repay the minimum, or none if

> that is an option, and let inflation erode it like

> a mortgage gets cheaper after 4 years or so.

> Eventually it will become loose change, even

> though there is interest liable, it is still

> economically sound to let it be.

Typical bloody honky.

[SteveT]

I only discovered a couple of weeks ago the origin of that word but I have been hearing it for years.

So HonaloochieB, yes I put my hands up to car ownership

[????]

Very good article by Tim Lott on the betrayal of the white working class by the liberal middle class in the Independent on Sunday today

[SeanMacGabhann]

Tim Lott has been banging that drum for a couple of years now... but I never liked him any any of his guises anyway

[BJL]

As an immigrant to the UK, I've never really understood this country's class system and how it works. Or the point of it.

It's not wealth-based, is it? Is it more about education or employment? Don't most people just chose what class system they feel they identify with? (I used to know a man in his sixties who had a university education, had worked as a computer programmer, author and magazine editor and was married to a senior civil servant. He insisted that he was "working" class and was very disdainful of the "middle" classes.)

What class are these people?

Professional football player

Chef

Musician

Stonemason

Nurse

Perhaps someone could try and explain it to me...

[mockney piers]

I'm not sure I could, I'm not sure many people can really, especially as it's much less clear cut than it used to be.

No better in Spain. My dad has always insisted he is working class, but his dad ran a newspaper (until it was confiscated by Franco after the fall of Almeria, and he was bunged in prison for trying to claim it back) and after his release, ran a corner shop until he died, a broken man, a few years later. Hardly traditional work class professions.

I think it's quite often linked to your politics. "Traditional" labour voters will probably consider themselves working class even if their kids have gone through university and do white collar work. How those kids see themselves is anyone's guess.

For my part I grew up on a nice estate in a home counties sleeper (and sleepy) town. I'm about as middle class as you get, but nothing to be ashamed of and I sure as hell am not going to apologise for it; apart from the lack of angst in my life means I don't seem to have much of a novel in me.

[atila the gooner]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm afraid you're wrong there Atila it was Marcus

> Garvey. Bob Marley appropriated the words into the

> song War.

Sorry to disagree with you Jah but lyrics from the song War, adapted from an excerpt of Ethiopian Emperor H.I.M. Haile Selassie?s address to the United Nations in October 1963 by Bob Marley.

[Brendan]

BJL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As an immigrant to the UK, I've never really

> understood this country's class system and how it

> works. Or the point of it.

I know what you mean BJL. Growing up in South Africa we were generally aware of the British class system (as about a 3rd of SA?s white population at least is essentially English) but I have never fully understood it.

My family find it bemusing that my wife?s family who are from Manchester consider us terribly posh. My Father (who like many Afrikaners in the middle of last century came from dirt poor conditions with no social safety net) fought tooth and nail to educate himself and became a teacher and my mother (who was 1 of 3 kids raised by a single mother who worked as a teller in the post office) became a nurse. They live in a small house and drive a 10 year old car whereas the in-laws have 3 properties in 3 different countries, had their own business, retired early etc.

I think it has more to do with some kind of tribalism than your actual economic situation.

[*Bob*]

I think at least 55% of the answers you're looking for can be found within the lyrics of Pulp's 'Common People'.

[BJL]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it has more to do with some kind of

> tribalism than your actual economic situation.

Brendan - that's an interesting theory and I'd guess you're probably right. What's odd to me is that unlike most tribes, people define their own class (and can change from one to the other). It's more difficult to change from Celt to Saxon, Zulu to Xhosa or Sioux to Oneida.

I wonder why people chose to pigeonhole themselves into tribes/classes?

[Keef]

I think class is a thing of the past. Okay we have the stupidly rich, but other than that you just can't define it.

[david_carnell]

BJL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I wonder why people chose to pigeonhole themselves

> into tribes/classes?

A sense of belonging and snobbish-ness (even if it's inverted) would be high on the list of reasons.

As to defining class most sociologists now use socio-economic indicators instead of the overly simplistic working, middle and upper. Below is the most common variant:

A = Approximately 3% of the total population.

These are professional people, very senior managers in business or commerce or top-level

civil servants.

Retired people, previously grade A, and their widows.

B = Approximately 20% of the total population

Middle management executives in large organisations, with appropriate qualifications.

Principle officers in local government and civil service.

Top management or owners of small business concerns, educational and service

establishments.

Retired people, previously grade B, and their widows.

C1 = Approximately 28% of the total population.

Junior management, owners of small establishments, and all others in non-manual

positions.

Jobs in this group have very varied responsibilities and educational requirements.

Retired people, previously grade C1, and their widows.

C2 = Approximately 21% of the total population.

All skilled manual workers, and those manual workers with responsibility for other people.

Retired people, previously grade C2, with pensions from their job.

Widows, if receiving pensions from their late husband's job.

D = Approximately 18% of the total population.

All semi-skilled and un-skilled manual workers, apprentices and trainees to skilled workers.

Retired people, previously grade D, with pensions from their job.

Widows, if receiving a pension from their late husband's job.

E = Approximately 10% of the total population.

All those entirely dependant on the state long-term, through sickness, unemployment,

old age or other reasons. Those unemployed for a period exceeding six months

(otherwise classify on previous occupation).

Casual workers and those without a regular income.

Only households without a Chief Income Earner will be coded in this group

Of course this is mainly economic based and ignores social nuance e.g. the whole U and non-U thing (albeit updated for the modern world).

[Brendan]

I think you are right in saying a sense of belonging David. It is a very strong human need. We are pack animals after all and nobody likes to feel alienated.

[KalamityKel]

From where did u get such figures?

[BJL]

david_carnell: thanks for the explanation.

I guess that the "white working class" are now the "white C2/D"? Not as catchy, but possibly more accurate. Perhaps this, along with Keef's observation that "class" may be "a thing of the past", may explain what's happened to the WWC - maybe many of them are just happy to be individuals?

[david_carnell]

KalamityKel Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> From where did u get such figures?

They come from "Occupation Groupings: A Job Dictionary", 6ed, 2006, published by the Market Research Society.

It is worth pointing out though, that even this gradin system was first devised nearly fifty years ago by the National Readership Survey. It too is somewhat outdated and as I said, ignores social groupings and favours economic indicators.

[KalamityKel]

Cheers. Twas just interested :p

[david_carnell]

Go ahead. Test yourself:

Know your place

What do you think of the Turner Prize shortlist exhibition?

(a) Bit weird. They want to get that step sanded down.

(b) A random collection of semiotics that fuse to give us a visceral glimpse of the post-postmodern state.

© Terrible pests, bears.

What time is tea-time?

(a) Seven-thirty. Wash your hands!

(b) Four-thirty. Fortnums do a wonderful eggs benedict.

© Five minutes after I ring this bell.

You've got the builders in. Do you ...

(a) Have a cup of tea and talk shop.

(b) Float around awkwardly in the background, make useless attempts at conversation, drop your aitches and eventually flee, filled with terrible feelings of self-loathing.

© Have a cup of tea and talk shop. Before being dragged upstairs by the arrival of the Earl of Sandwich.

Will you be watching the rugby?

(a) Got to haven't you. The lads have done us proud.

(b) It should be on in the background at the Pestle and Artichoke. Did I mention that I went to school with Andrew Sheridan?

© Hazza says there's a spot in the 'copter to Paris - then everyone back to Boujis!

If your answers were ...

Mostly (a): you're not middle class.

Mostly (b): you're middle class. Yes you are. Just get used to it.

Mostly ©: you were unaware that any such thing existed - but it sounds intriguing

I'd like to claim this was entirely my own creation and some of the answers are depressingly East Dulwich-centric but alas it comes from an otherwise serious and interesting look at social class from the Guardian's Decca Aitkenhead.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I think economic class and 'class' class are two separate things. One could be the Duke of Peckham yet not have two ha'pennies to rub together; or one could have earned a ?1.2m bonus last year and aspirate one's aitches!