Gay/Lesbian Parent Group in East Dulwich

[Moos]

The dad who runs Plough Babies posts on the forum as rsn - maybe he's connected to a 'dad's network'?

[cazzyr]

see what you did there? A bloke asks exactly the same question as I did, not in the wanted section, about a group he feels he'd like to frequent with his daughter (good on him) and gets supportive answers. I asked and got horrible, hate filled invective. Proves my point. Well done you bunch of misogynistic, homophobic, patronising w***ers. you illustrate my point brilliantly.

[SeanMacGabhann]

cazzy - you got plenty of supportive answers to your original post. You took overly-sensitive issue with one question and have been ignoring anything positive since.

Robhdg also has qualified his statement and hasn't over-reacted to anyresponses

Maybe it's not being female, lesbian or patronised that's causing anyone any problems here. Maybe it could just be..... you?

You said:

Some examples please? And does anything sound more hate-filled than:

Glad to see recent weeks have been spent brusing up those diplomatic skills..

[annaj]

cazzyr, I'm really sorry that you're still feeling hurt and victimised over this, but I've just read carefully back through the full five pages of posts and I can't find a "horrible hate filled invective".

You were asked a question about your original post which you took offence at and, instead of answering and sharing how you feel and why, angrily over-reacted. Most of the hate and name-calling came from you and those supporting you. I really think you should try reading back through this thread with a clear head and try and notice all the positive and reasonable comments that were made.

I hope that you have found the group you're looking for and that you feel supported in your parenting.

But, please, think carefully before accusing an entire group of people, about whom you know very little, of mysogyny and homophobia, it is really very offensive.

[Guest]

Having not seen this thread until now I find it totally bewildering. The collective message - ok it wasn't expressed quite this way - seems to me to be 'please be part of this community, gay parents are as much as part of life around here as straight parents', but cazzyr has heard it as misogynism, homophobia, hatred etc. Speaking as someone who has a bit of a tendency to be oversensitive at times, Cazzyr, do you think it's possible you maybe heard something different from what was actually said here?

(PS my sister's wife gives birth to their first child in a month's time and I used to live with a lesbian couple who had children, so please believe this is not a veiled dig.)

[annaj]

Thanks MsB, it's good to hear that response from someone who wasn't involved in the original discussion.

I'm honestly troubled by how wronged cazzyr feels and by how much anger she's still carrying. I think of this forum as inclusive and supportive generally and it bothers me that someone has read it so differently.

[cdonline]

I'm not suprised Cazzyr is angry. Reading many of the comments, I experienced many of them as at the very least bordering on homophobic.

Cazzyr was asked to justify the idea of a group, when it seemed to me a prefectly "normal" question to ask.

The fact that many rallied round with some dreadful and yep, misogynistic comments was a real low point. That many in the group felt the same, does not mean your attitude was correct, just that a group of like-minded people gathered round. It felt very much one against the group and I am not suprised that Cazzyr has reacted that way. It felt to me like bullying.

[SeanMacGabhann]

cdonline - I am genuinely interested in opinions such as yours (and indeed cazzyr's) if they are backed up

Where is all this misogyny and homophobia - can we have quotes? Can we have context as well. Like annaj I have re-read the 5 pages and fail to see either. But with several female and gay friends I need to be told where this stuff is coming from so I don't put a foot in it. It;s a serious accusation. (on a less serioud note, it may scupper my chance at the badger&mikese22 friend auditions!)

The original post was quite - as you put it "normal" but it was also pretty exclusive and people were only prodding as to the whys and wherefores. To compare with rob's request above, he explained his reasons

Again, to accuse someone of homophobia, misogyny, and now bullying without any backup is pretty lame. the thread is still all there - anyone can read it and judge it's contents but you can't just label 5 pages of opinion as such - examples please!

cdonline - You've been on here a while - you know many of the posters - do you really think bullying is de rigeur? And if not commonplace then why would we pick on someone we don't know? Your second ever post on here was about Gay drinks at the rye - I was part of that thread - and I didn't see any homophobia then

Genuinely baffled

[SeanMacGabhann]

[cont]

to make the point further, there was also a thread about gay/lesbian friendly bars which a) included a contribution from cazzyr and b) a contribution from me amongst others and didn't generate into mud-slinging and which produced several recommendations - can be found here:

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,46046,page=1

So I do find accusations of the sort being made particularly..irksome

I have no idea how cazzyr is or what she is like - she could be the nicest person alive but all I have to go on is an overly-defensive post followed by being called mysoginistic, homophobic wanker - Personally I would love to hear from the nice cazzyr! It's a bank holiday Monday, back to work tomorrow, it's bucketing down rain so the more sunshine we generate here the better

[cdonline]

Sean

If I was feeling a bit OCD about it, I would happily cut and paste some fantastic quotes, but no, I'm not.

I was really angry when I first read this thread and the way it developed. When it came back today, I felt that I should express a little solidarity and support. I wanted to say that I personally disagreed with many of the comments.

I am sure that there was no intention to be bullying or homophobic. I think I was quite careful to not accuse people of doing that, rather that the written comments felt that way.

I am just confused by the whole idea of having to justify a gay and lesbian parent group, no matter how politely it was meant.

Perhaps, one of these days, I should drag myself to one of the drinks nights.

[mightyroar]

I agree with you cdonline. well put.

[SeanMacGabhann]

t'would be lovely to see you there cdonline - and cazzyr - they aren't organised as hetty-only nights

to get a teeny bit serious for a mo (you can skip to the ****** bit a few paragraphs down if you don't want serious)

making a case doesn't involve OCD - anybody who needs to prove any point needs evidence to back up a claim - otherwise anyone can call anyone anything and not have to do anything to back it up. The accusations of mysoginy, homophobia and bullying levelled at the majority here are not minor and those accused could be pursued legally if true

I absolutely agree with the statement that setting up a gay and lesbian parenting group should be totally a non-issue. But the reason I think it became one in this particular thread (and it's an only my opinion but I'm going to try and expand on it - by doing so I'm not trying to have a go at cazzyr or anyone else) is that the wording in the initial post appeared more "us" and "them" than is usual. Almost certainly not deliberately or meant for anything other than clarity but the final phrase "There's loads on for hetero parents but v little for the gays in the village! " suggests there is a big hetero group organising exclusive evenings - when the truth is existing groups are probably mixed. So it was to be expected (I reckon) that people would at least query the "Why so exclusive?" stance based on that sentence alone. Those initial promptings elicited an over-defensive response and things went on from there - but I still see little or no homophobia - and certainly nothing that compares with calling an entire group wankers. In my book, someone who does that does need to explain themselves - even if they have a very good point to make, stooping to that level just ostracizes everyone

*******

There are plenty of regular gay and female contributors on here - if this environment was hostile to them I figure we would hear more about it

Oh dang - I put that last bit in the non-serious section - tch

Back to the drinks - doesn't have to be the monthly drinks - there are many evenings where plenty of forumites (gay and straight) hook up - book evenings, curry evenings, open-mic evenings yadda yadda. No one has to bother meeting but it would at least prove it's not populated by "wan****" First drink is on me if I see ye out and about

[Moos]

Hi cazzyr

Since I'm one of the people who responded to robhdg's post, just wanted to say I am sorry that I was one of the people who made you feel excluded or judged.

I haven't read ALL OF the previous pages so am not commenting on the argument but I hope that I am not misogynistic or homophobic, and I know for sure that many of the recent posters on this thread are good people.

I hope you have found a group that you like - if you haven't I do know some local gay parents and can put you in touch if that would help - I myself am a local non-gay parent.

Edited because I went back to find the quote just posted above, and found a post from me on page 4! Sorry. So I guess I have to have a view now... I hope cazzyr also goes back and re-reads both the wealth of positive comments that came her way, and also the comments that were challenging and questioning without being hostile.

[mightyroar]

Calling everyone a wanker is clearly an overreaction. Misogyny and homphobia are very strong words too, and I think the whole thread got out of hand over semantics. But how about this post (my use of bold):

Quite clearly equal opps and the likes aint equal... come on if u wanted to b treated the same you would act the same and not try to alienate yourselves by deliberately being different! That's not to say one should not express individualism but ffs lose the pathetic, aggressive attitude AND stop with the assumptions that ppl are against you.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Interesting reply mightyroar - have to confess I overlooked that original post (as I tend to when anyone OD's on text speak when they are using a proper keyboard)

And the person who has posted that message quoted has, i believe, been the subject of some pretty robust arguments against themselves in some other threads

For what it's worth I see where you are coming from and wouldn't agree with the sentiments epressed in that quote - although I do NOT think (and I could well be wrong on this so I'm prepared to hold my hands up) that the unsubtle, badly expressed intentions related to sexuality or gender per se (I believe the poster of that comment is female) - my take on it was that the differences referred to are about the cut and thrust of a public forum and not being quite so defensive. But I can totally see how something else could be read into it. And unless the poster comes back on and says either way I guess I'll never know. I would also re-iterate that of the dozens of posts it is in a minority of - barely 1 or 2

But once again - re-reading the thread from the beginning, the first punch thrown was when cazzy called someone (and a frequent-poster, enlightened someone at that) "ignorant". read every post from the beginning to that retort and tell me where the belligerence came from. If one or two posts were inexpertly (or even malevolently) posted amongst the many dozens I still think most people were upset at the pugnacious attitude shown rather than anything else

I stand by what I said earlier - I would like the real cazzyr to post. Obviously stung by the original thread she is obviously still reading the forum months later. There must be some inkling that the whole world isn't out to get her. i'd like to heard about the bazillion other threads and what her contributions to those might be. I genuinely think that all of this has nothing to do with any form of sexism or prejudice but is all down to public-forum etiquette and mores - it happens all the time in other forums (forae?) . there are some prominent posters here who equally came in all guns blazing and faced a settled community going "scuse me what's with the attitude" - most of them realised it was a case of misunderstanding and readjusted.

[Fuschia]

cdonline Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>> I am just confused by the whole idea of having to

> justify a gay and lesbian parent group, no matter

> how politely it was meant.

>

Agreed

[Strawbs]

Wow Im shocked at the legs this thread has..

I think that there are a few points here.. Everyone has the right to seek out a group of their preference i.e. gay parents, straight swingers, Wii guitar hero players whatever and to be honest its pretty simple if the thread does not relate to you then dont post on it.. No one should have to justify why they are wanting to meet up with a particular group of people - full stop.

Im gay and in all honesty when I decide to have to children I will absolutely be seeking out a gay parents group as not only do gay people face separate issues to straight people (and if you even have to ask what they are you clearly need to get with the times) but it is also my right to hang out with whomever I choose without justification required. I will also be part of a straight group i would imagine as I dont isolate myself to just 'the gays' but by no means do I think the original poster was trying to do that.

I dont think that the original poster meant to isolate anyone or herself with her comment of basically (not quoted) there is more for the hetties than the gays in the village and I just cant see where the need came from to pounce on that particular comment because again its comes back to what I think of if it doesnt relate to you then why post??!! Surely there are better things to do with one's time?

Possibly I think this thread just needs to chill out a little - the comments that are flying around now are fairly out there and serious esp the posters comments re homophobes etc as that then gets people offside, accept that she wants to be part of a gay mothers group and not feel that she is isolating herself just because she feels there needs to be more for the gays in the village and may not want to be part of a straight mothers group which again is her choice. Only she can decide which people she wants to hang out with and why..

[mockney piers]

Shall I compare people to Nazis just so I can Godwin this thread?

This thread continues to have legs because of continued outrageous accusations. Seriously, to post like that months after this thread finally died down smacks of a shoulderous chip to rival that of Louisa.

Let go the anger, for anger leads to hate...etc...

[DaveR]

Strawbs, I think the point that many have made is that, in my experience at least, most parents' groups are not 'straight' or 'hettie', they are just groups for parents, and all are welcome. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be groups for gay and/or lesbian parents, or anybody else who wants their own group, but you should be cautious about defining others by their sexuality.

I also think there is a valid general point to be made about the genuine conflict between preserving rights to 'otherness' and encouraging understanding and acceptance i.e. if you discuss gay parenting issues exclusively amongst gay parents, it becomes a little more difficult to complain that 'straights' don't understand the unique issues you face. This latter point, I would agree, would be better discussed separately from a thread where someone is simply saying "can we have a gay parents group"

[SeanMacGabhann]

But is this really what people want - every thread a "ghetto" where people who don't share the interest in the title are never welcome?

Personally I love it when people come in to (say) the geeks gaming forum or the football forum and say "I just don't get it - what is the attraction??".

I don't think "well if you have no interest why are you even here?"

If it really is what people want then I can't see much point and any reference to "community" becomes moot

[mockney piers]

I reckon it's what has kept this from being just another dull, run-o'-the-mill forum.

There are any number of "where can I find a carpenter" type local forums and they're all dull dull dull.

This one managed to gain a significant network effect because of its tendency to drift into oblique, heated, surreal and almost always funny conversations, not in spite of it.

There's always the West Dulwich Forum or the SE5 forum or Freecycle or a million other resource sites if people want.

[Bellenden Belle]

Actually I must agree with Mockney Piers and Sean - what I love about this forum is that we all engage with each other .... whether it's about parenting groups, cat flaps, politics or alcohol - we get to know each other not as sources of information, but as people. I think it makes EDF quite a rare thing - and personally I love the fact that often individuals can disagree - with passion, belief and conviction - and it doesn't mean they aren't welcome on the forum, and that the same people who fall out over one issue, won't find common ground over something else.

[Cassius]

You mean that mothers/fathers/whatever want to get together with your children and chat - what are your nannies for?

[Scruffy Mummy]

Baby groups dominated by straight mothers can verge on the desparately boring, let's face it!!

Seriously folks - let's all take a chill pill! I totally get what the orginal poster was saying. Straight people like to think they are every soooooo open-minded but I've been in baby groups with mainly straight parents and have heard a fair amount of heterosexist rubbish - like 'I feel so sorry for gay people, if my son was gay I would feel like he would have such a miserable life' and yes, I've taken on the role of the educator for straight folk.

But why should lesbians and gay men always have to do this? Maybe being in a group for lesbian parents means they don't always have to play that role. I'd like to see some of the posters here make an effort to get out of their heterosexual ghetto and go and hang out in a gay bar, go to Gay Pride, chill at the lesbian and gay film festival. Make an effort to educate yourselves for a change - push yourselves. Anyway, you might find you quite like it!! >:D<

[mockney piers]

I'll do my best as I obviously have no idea about anything lesbian or gay ;-P