Vaccine wars

[Hamletter]

Some interesting comments on the web about the new battleground with the EU. Just love the last one!

I think any business would fulfil their orders in chronological order of receipt.

Yet the EU expects AZ to bump them up the list even thought they were 3 months behind the UK.

This is flannel designed to deflect their very poor start to their vaccine programme.

This is precisely why Brexit was a great idea! The E.U is not a trading unit or a group of aligned nations; it is a power hungry entity DICTATING to those nations.

I seem to remember being explicitly told that the EU was not a protection racket by the usual spambots on here, looks like their EU masters' true colours are shining through

the EU has no cake. They now demand that they eat ours!

The EU are acting like spoilt children, who have arrived late to the party and are complaining because there re no party hats left.

The EU signed a contract with a confidentiality clause. They should stick to what they agreed

The EU cumbersome handling of their vaccination crisis highlights the problem of big organisations such as states and companies. It might make things cheaper but at the cost of service and speed. Companies with the worst customer service are usually the bigger ones and are often the slowest to react.

The Germans know the rules, we put our towels out 3 Months ago.

[JohnL]

They've invoked article 16 of the NI protocol

Not sure I blame them as they need vaccines but not sure where it will lead

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

[JohnL]

Hamletter Wrote:

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> I think any business would fulfill their orders in

> chronological order of receipt.

>

Someone who knows about contracts needs to say if that is relevant unless mentioned in the contract (I'm not an expert on contracts)

I'd have thought if you sign a contract it's between the parties in the contract and other contracts don't come into it unless specifically mentioned. If someone fails to deliver it needs to be renegotiated or whatever ...

[keano77]

It is getting ugly unfortunately.

While I have a certain sympathy with the EU regarding the contractual dispute it seems clear that the hostility and aggression coming from the EU is because the bureaucrats are fighting for their miserable political lives.

Frexit? Nexit? Italexit?

[Spartacus]

Sad thing is that this seems a game of vaccine chess being played with the residents of the EU and the UK as pawns.

Absolutely not acceptable by either side and I know there is panic over procurement (the EU want to vaccinate as many as they can as do we) but for either side to restrict supply is simply unacceptable.

What's the solution, I don't know maybe the EU needs to invest heavily in the factories in Belgium where the production problem lies, but even then will that be enough to vaccinate everyone who is high on the list.

Strangely the Germans have made a decision, right or wrong, not to give the Oxford vaccine to the over 65s so they appear to be sacrificing some of their Pawns in the game. Let's hope history doesn't judge them for such terrible humanity decision.

Overall rather than blame game being played with the EU accusing us of hogging (as a friend in southern Ireland told me yesterday) or the UK not being able to find a way to ramp up supplies (possibly with the EUs help) then it will get very very messy and the human toll won't be acceptable.

Maybe WHO needs to step up 🤔

[SpringTime]

Given that this is a global issue shouldn't the vaccine be distributed globally and in the most even way possible? For a moment it occurred to me that the countries hosting the companies leading successful vaccine production should be at the fore of vaccine rollouts, but this must be wrong. The variants are spreading wherever they will and can, and it's no individual's fault whomever or wherever they are if they catch and succumb to the bug.

But "how" they are is more important - whatever country you're in access should, and probably can, be granted as to your needs depending on age, vulnerability, etc. Am I being an internationalist libtard or us that just right and proper? Either way please correct me.

[Hamletter]

If the EU does take it to court, then which court? The EU court supposedly no longer has jurisdiction

[Spartacus]

You're not wrong springtime but sadly the countries who invested in the drug companies to do the r&d want returns, that's why they invested

The UK is however the second biggest contributor to COVAC which helps distribute the vaccines to countries who can't get on the global race on their own.

I still think WHO should be stepping up and managing the issue (either in Europe or the rest of the world)

[SpringTime]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You're not wrong springtime but sadly the

> countries who invested in the drug companies to do

> the r&d want returns, that's why they invested

> The UK is however the second biggest contributor

> to COVAC which helps distribute the vaccines to

> countries who can't get on the global race on

> their own.

>

> I still think WHO should be stepping up and

> managing the issue (either in Europe or the rest

> of the world)

Fair enough (i.e. unfair on the less fortunate).

[Hamletter]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sad thing is that this seems a game of vaccine

> chess being played with the residents of the EU

> and the UK as pawns.

>

> Absolutely not acceptable by either side and I

> know there is panic over procurement (the EU want

> to vaccinate as many as they can as do we) but for

> either side to restrict supply is simply

> unacceptable.

>

> What's the solution, I don't know maybe the EU

> needs to invest heavily in the factories in

> Belgium where the production problem lies, but

> even then will that be enough to vaccinate

> everyone who is high on the list.

>

Well, every credit to Boris for opting out of the centralised EU procurement plan.

The UK funded AstraZeneca for massively expanded facilities way back 9 months ago on the basis we got first dibs and that it would be non-profit. Also we bought massive volumes of doses form other suppliers in USA and Europe. Meanwhile the EU dithered and delayed.

We also funded bio-reactor expansion and production at 5 other sites. The UK will be more than self-sufficient in vaccine production within a matter of weeks.

Sure makes the EU look rather lethargic, bureaucratic, indecisive and frankly incompetent. It's like the USSR. That's why they are now lashing out to avert blame coming their way. More and more EU members are going their own way with Hungary and Poland ordering the Sputnik vaccine even though Brussels has not approved it.

Brussels playing these games is sad case of mismanagement... and now bullying.

[TheCat]

It's 'funny' isn't it? If the roles were reversed and the EU had 10 percent vaccinated and the UK had just 2-3 percent, and then Boris and co had decided to act as the EU has in bullying Big Pharma - the EDF europhiles would be lining up around the block to take pot shots at the 'murderous' UK Govt which is desperately trying to cover up for its incompetence. They would wail about how Boris has "blood on his hands' and they would cheer the idea of the govt being sued for negligence.

But...I'm just speculating of course..instead...near silence on the EU failings from that same group of posters...And when it's been raised previously it gets dismissed as 'kind of sick' and not 'serious' to focus on such an aspect of breaking with the EU....

[Hamletter]

You've got to love it..

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1390765/Nigel-Farage-news-revels-EU-vaccine-failures-Commission-proof-right-latest-VN

[????]

I make you right cat. Macron?s also attempting to undermine the UK vaccination with trump like anti-Vax bullshit. The EU (and posters on here) that made such a big thing about preserving the integrity of the GOod Friday Agreement just dropped the bombshell with no notice, not even to the Irish government. Rarely have the DUP and Sinn Fein agreed with each other, bravo EU. Attempts at Gangsterism to cover up its own incompetence on vaccination.

[alex_b]

Hamletter Wrote:

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> If the EU does take it to court, then which court?

> The EU court supposedly no longer has jurisdiction

If it?s taking AZ to court then presumably a court in whichever jurisdiction was specified in the contract (I guess Belgium as that?s where it was signed). If you?re talking about the potential blockage of vaccine exports the new treaty has a disputes mechanism to address this.

[Seabag]

It?s wonderful we left the bloc to exit ourselves from the snails pace bureaucracy, only to create our own snails pace bureaucracy and f**k up our own exports.

Nice work, at least I?ll be alive (I?ve had the jab, so fingers crossed) to see mine and other UK businesses ground into the ground.

[TheCat]

I wonder how businesses would be affected by an extra 6-12 months or so of lockdowns and restrictions which we would most likely be subject to if still aligned with the EU vaccine policy...

[KidKruger]

I wonder how businesses would be affected by the UK Govt taking the pandemic seriously since last Spring ?

[TheCat]

The government have got many things wrong, I don't think there's many people who would dispute that. Can we not just acknowledge and celebrate something they have done right?

[Spartacus]

And the politics slip in 😭

Rather than looking at the bigger picture of how can the vaccine be distributed to protect as many people as it can globally, it falls down to I am / am not all right Jack on here.

Given the issues with production, the lack of leadership by WHO, how can this global humanitarian crisis be turned around to protect as many as possible.

If Europe can't get vaccines soon then countries like France (already approaching lock down 3 and 75 thousand deaths) may soon overtake us as the highest death rate in the European area.

I don't advocate robbing Peter to pay Paul so what are the practical steps that can be taken by the EU, UK and WHO to save as many lives as possible here, across Europe and the world.

After all if a country (say Africa) doesn't vaccinate most off the population then there is a risk that the virus will mutate there and spread around the world again.

[Hamletter]

Sure, deaths in the UK have been high and may be due to not imposing a night time curfew. Death rate is now declining here . I just wonder what Starmer would have said if Boris had opposed a curfew!

Night time curfews also apply in:-

France ( and deaths are still rising)

Spain,

Portugal

Germany (most of)

Holland

Denmark

Belgium

Sweden - (partial with alcohol curfew!)

Norway - about to start

Italy

Greece

Czech Republic

Romania

Hungary

Makes one wonder how the idea of a night time curfew would go down here. It didnt go down well in Netherlands.

[ianr]

alex_b wrote:

------------

> If it?s taking AZ to court then presumably

> a court in whichever jurisdiction was

> specified in the contract (I guess Belgium

> as that?s where it was signed).

And stated: "18.4 This Agreement shall be governed by the laws of Belgium."

[Seabag]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And the politics slip in 😭

>

> Rather than looking at the bigger picture of how

> can the vaccine be distributed to protect as many

> people as it can globally, it falls down to I am /

> am not all right Jack on here.

>

If your slipping Politics out of your idealistic thread, then you?re not seeing the ?bigger picture? and the whole thing becomes a theoretical conversation.

[Spartacus]

That's all it can be Seabag , theoretical, as none of us are actually in power or a position to change it.

All we can do is discuss it, get wound up / down by it or speculate about it, but unless Boris / Kier is on here we can't do much more at this juncture.

So my stance is look at what can be done as a conversation point and not play the blame game and you never know , as a collection of bright people we may actually solve the conundrum 🤔

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's 'funny' isn't it? If the roles were reversed

> and the EU had 10 percent vaccinated and the UK

> had just 2-3 percent, and then Boris and co had

> decided to act as the EU has in bullying Big

> Pharma - the EDF europhiles would be lining up

> around the block to take pot shots at the

> 'murderous' UK Govt which is desperately trying to

> cover up for its incompetence. They would wail

> about how Boris has "blood on his hands' and they

> would cheer the idea of the govt being sued for

> negligence.

>

> But...I'm just speculating of

> course..instead...near silence on the EU failings

> from that same group of posters...And when it's

> been raised previously it gets dismissed as 'kind

> of sick' and not 'serious' to focus on such an

> aspect of breaking with the EU....

As flattering as it is to hear how you're missing the 'EDF Europhiles' comments, I'm sorry to disappoint but some of 'us' have a life outside the EDF. I can't speak for anyone else but I see you've quoted Septh, he's big enough to fight his own battles but if you take a quick look at his posting history he hasn't posted for nearly a week, so I expect he's taking a break.

As for myself, the first I heard about the EU invoking A16 was last night when it was mentioned during the Last Leg, then when I checked the news this morning it had all blown over.

It doesn't cover up that the EU screwed up by doing that, especially with not consulting Dublin beforehand, but they saw the error of their ways and quickly withdrew, something I would've had little confidence in this Gov doing, witness the Internal Markets Bill. A couple of weeks ago Johnson himself said he would invoke A16 if he needed to, so there's not much of a moral high ground to stand on in that respect... https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/watch-we-will-have-no-hesitation-in-triggering-article-16-if-necessary-says-boris-johnson-39964412.html

As for 'vaccine nationalism', I've already made my opinion known and I echo what Spartacus has said in that there's little to be gained by one country having a speedy and successful vaccination programme if other countries don't and it gives the virus a chance to mutate and make current vaccination efficacy obsolete. One of the reasons why the EU wanted to go down the collective vaccination route was so that the smaller EU countries had just as much access to vaccines as the big hitters, and that's to be applauded. A pandemic is global and needs global solutions...

[malumbu]

Not sure if articles quoting the WHO on vaccine hoarding have been discussed yet. Quoting briefly from one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2021/01/29/who-vaccine-hoarding-would-be-a-catastrophic-moral-failure-that-keeps-pandemic-burning/?sh=558ebb2015ac

During a virtual briefing Friday, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, the WHO director-general, said that vaccine hoarding would not only be a "catastrophic moral failure," but that it would keep "the pandemic burning" and would result in a "very slow" global economic recovery.

Mike Ryan, the WHO's top emergency expert, declared that affluent countries "fighting over the cake" risk neglecting frontline health workers in developing countries that "don't even have access to the crumbs."

Obviously from a personal view we can stop hoarding once I've had my jab.....