Help!!- sleeptraining advice

[midivydale]

Hi all,

Some of you will know that I have posted on and off since ds was born regarding his sleeping. Once reflux was tackled and treated he slept ok 7-5 for about 5mnths.

Since 8 mnths (he is now 10) he has started waking 2-3 times a night. I should add that he has been very sick during this time with repeated chest infections. Of course priority has been to comfort him during his illness but I now feel that we have created a number of bad sleepassociations that i dont know how to break. Co sleeping, several bottles at night etc.

I am going back to work soon and need to get some sleep. My oh needs his bed back and I want to finally leave the foggy sleepdeprived mindset again.

He has had a bedtime routine since birth pretty much and easily goes down at 7. Then he wakes and screams until he takes a whole bottle at 12, then sometimes again at 3 and 5. Clearly this is more habit than hunger? No?

His reflux is managed, he eats plenty in the day and apart frm teething no other medical issues at present.

I read a book by andrea scott wright which said to go

Cold turkey on all props ie dummy, bottle, cuddles and replace by "night night sleepy time". A cry it out method i guess.

Has anyone tried this? I am probably bonkers but I do feel that cry it out methods would harm him, he is a sensitive little soul:).

Ladies, can anyone give me any pointers? Am I paranoid about leaving him to cry?

I will need to tackle this and soon as sleep deprivation is having a detrimental effect on my health so I do need to sort it, I just dont know how.

Leaving him to cry just seems so brutal.

You wise ladies out there- help!

[RenF]

The 'cold turkey' method sounds a little harsh, and if you're not sure about it then it's probably going to result in more stress for you, and maybe confused messages for your wee one?

At 10 months I felt my little one could be left to cry a little- we went through a period of night wakings that before I knew it had resulted in her co sleeping with us several times a week and often being awake for hours on end... This coincided with my return to work so like you I felt I needed to tackle it in order to get some brain function back!

We did a gradual withdrawal method involving initially going in, having a cuddle, shh, pat and so on then leaving the room. Next time she cried out, back in but perhaps no pick up, and just shh pat etc, next time reduced time in room and so on. Finally, we'd just shh from the door. This did gradually work but not without some tears on her part. If she genuinely wasn't settling and getting very distressed I would go back to the beginning with a cuddle and so on until she settled as I didn't want to leave her to cry it out (I should add I did leave her once after two hours of in and out of her room and she settled herself after 5 or so mins...)

Hope some of this helps, and good luck for going back to work.

[Lochie]

I am afraid that a form of controlled crying is the only thing that worked with no.1 at about 12 months. It took about 3 nights but he eventually gor the message. It is not fun, I would sit on the landing outside his room with headphones on, reading a book, and would go in every 5 mins to comfort him. There is no 'nice' side to controlled crying, you need an iron will and to just think of the long term gain. I hated every minute of doing it but it worked.

I am having same issues as you with no. 2 but can't do any form of controlled crying as she shares a room with no. 1! She is a sensitive soul too. In this instance I co sleep at night and just accept that is the case for now. Co sleeping has worked in the short term for us, but I know it will have to be tackled at some point. I'm going back to work in a few weeks too. I rarely get more than a 3 hour stretch of unbroken sleep, it is hard!

By the way, if it makes you feel better, a friend of mine went to see her GP about this a few years ago. We share the same GP so I trust what they say. They advised to put the baby down to sleep, shut the door and 'don't go back in'. You really would need nerves of steel to do that, but my point is, medically speaking, I don't think it is harmful to leave a baby crying if they are well, fed, bathed and just clearly overtired

Good luck

X

[oimissus]

we did a mixture of controlled wailing and going in but not picking her up, just sitting by the side of the cot shushing and stroking, and then gradually leaving. Always gave her a few minutes to try and self-settle, then went in. She has her bunny blankie always at bedtime (we have a spare) which has helped her no end, she strokes his ears through her fingers as she tries to get back to sleep. These days (she's just turned 3) it's so unusual for her to wake at night that I go in pretty quickly, and it rarely takes long for her to drop off again.

Make sure once back at work you share nightimes with your OH! You will need each other for support if you do CC. I don't think CC harms them, you can do the timings to suit yourself and your child, so we did 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 minute intervals, never longer than 5; some people do 5, 10, 15 etc. I think leaving them crying for longer than 30 minutes isn't great (isn't that when their cortisol levels start to rise?). At the end of the day a child and parents who get a decent night's sleep regularly are happier than those who don't!

[susyp]

just to put the other point - my daughter (in my view) needed milk in the night twice until she was 18 months. I tried to wean her off it a couple of times before , and then used the same method (reducing amount in bottle) at 18 months and it finally worked a dream. I really believe she was hungry up til then. She finally slept through at 2 years and we've had no problems (apart from illness) since.

probably not what you want to hear!

susypx

[Bouncy]

Don't know if this is infeasible, but could your other half not do the co-sleeping (sometimes?) rather than you? And you sleep by yourself elsewhere? The reason I ask is that we've discovered that my OH can actually sleep with ours without it disturbing him too much; he's a much deeper sleeper than me. It felt very weird at first when he did this - but, pragmatically, it works when it has to, for now: he actually gets enough sleep that way to funtion perfectly well, so does our toddler, and so do I. It's better than hours of crying, trying to sneak out, etc, etc... Just a thought, just in case...maybe the change would even mean that yours wouldn't want his bottles, if he's associating being around you with getting them? Never know?!

[midivydale]

Thank you so much all of you. So many reflections, much appreciated.

Up until now we have just done what we need to do as priority has been to comfort ds through illness. I have managed as oh takes a couple of nights a week which is great. We manage ok, i am

Nowhere near the acute state I was when we battled reflux hell but I am concerned that we are taking steps back. We have gone from no bottle to one to two...

I do not want to deprive him of food if he is hungry so susyp i understand where you are comming from. My concern is that this is a bad circle as he doesnt want breakfast etc.

I honestly do not know if i have the nerves required at this point for controlled crying. I am just concerned as i feel that we have regressed so much and am worried we will regress further if i dont tackle it.

Interesting about the cortisol levels as this has concerned me as well.

Thanks everyone

[Saffron]

Sorry, was going to post this last night, but my internet stopped working!

It can be difficult to measure cortisol release directly under non-experimental conditions, so actually there isn't a lot of high quality scientific data about cortisol release in controlled crying specifically. What is known is that cortisol is rapidly released as a response to stress in both adults and infants. Therefore, cortisol probably starts to be released immediately upon crying, and will likely continue to be released as long as the infant is crying. Cortisol is not a sleep hormone, so any activity that releases excess cortisol is working at opposites with sleep onset. This is one critical methodological problem with sleep training techniques that involve a lot of crying.

Dr Christopher Green is the originator of controlled crying, which he designed (and tested) as an alternative to cry-it-out, which he felt was stressful on parents and children. So, for anyone to tell someone that it's ok to shut a crying baby in the room at night and not go back, to me, actually shows a profound ignorance of the available literature on sleep in infants and children.

In Dr Green's original research, he himself notes that controlled crying is only a method of last resort, and that are some children for which it would not be suitable anyway. You can read his research in sleep journals, or in his Toddler Taming parenting books, which also give details of his methods of sleep training. However, many years on from his publications Dr Green has admitted that he feels differently. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/child-experts-growing-pains/story-e6frf7l6-1111114426718

I'm not telling you not to use controlled crying. You have to do what works for you, and every family is different. It's just important to recognise that there are many other forms of sleep training available and that different styles may suit different children for different reasons. Parentingscience.com has some interesting information.

http://www.parentingscience.com/Ferber-method.html and here http://www.parentingscience.com/Ferber-method.html

I also think this journal article (Blunden et al 2011) on sleep is one of the most profound articles on sleep that I have ever read. If you don't have access to the full text, please PM me. Here is the abstract and the link http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1087079210001322

Summary

In Australia, as in many Westernised industrialised nations, the majority of families encourage infants to sleep alone or ?solo? from an early age. Sleeping solo can increase night time crying, which in turn disrupts sleep for both parent and infant. Night time waking and crying are frequently culturally constructed as behavioural sleep ?problems?. The pursuit of solo sleeping is thus achieved through ?behavioural sleep treatments? that teach an infant to sleep alone. Some behavioural extinction treatments necessitate a parent leaving an infant to cry for extended periods unattended, a practice reportedly difficult for parents. Despite parent?s anxieties, and the potential (though little studied) stress to the infant, the pursuit of those behavioural sleep treatments are advocated by many psychologists and clinicians as acceptable and necessary interventions. This paper questions this necessity and critically reviews and debates these methods from biological, anthropological and cultural perspectives. Specifically, it considers Foucaultian, Leidloffian, attachment and behavioural perspectives. The central debate in this paper is if and why an infant?s nocturnal cries should be ignored. It challenges the aetiology and acceptance of the status quo in the hope of revisiting the underlying belief that these methods are necessary. In doing so, the paper theorises the ways in which current sleep training techniques do or do not satisfy the needs of infants and their parents and questions the extent to which they can be reconciled. The paper posits an agenda for further research in the area that may facilitate the reconciliation of the needs of parents and those of their infants.

I'm posting all this because I have a child who has always been a difficult sleeper. At every step, there has always been someone bullying* me or offering incorrect/incomplete information about controlled crying/cry it out. Parents should know that these were originally meant to be methods of last resort, and that other methods are available.

*Not on the Forum, I might add. xx

[midivydale]

Aw saffron to the rescue yet again! What would I (all of us) do without you. Thank you so much for posting all this info will read as soon as ds is asleep (ha ha ha).

[susyp]

also to say that you must feel like it is never going to end , I know I did, but now that he is 10 months you are not that far away from a better nights sleep. Things definitely got better for me around this time, I really can't remember the stages but definitely after a year things did get a little better. And if you think about where you started, the nights of virtually no sleep, I am sure things are much better.

I echo the idea of going to bed really realy early. I am normally going to bed by about 9 these days, I've just got fed up of being so tired all the time.

But there was no breakthrough time when I suddenly felt "normal" again, I am still tired with a child who sleeps all night. It just seems to be part and parcel of parenthood. But yes there is bearable and not bearable. I would never have another baby - I couldn't do the sleep deprivation.

I hope your situation gets better soon, I'm not posting advice obviously just utter sympathy!!

susypx

[Gooders79]

We reached breaking point with our lo last month, all very tired ratty and waking 2-3 times a night and taking an hour plus to settle back to sleep. I am back at work and pregnant with second so limited time for catching up on much needed sleep.

We took advice from Nicola Watson from child sleep solutions and had great results. Basically once I stopped breast feeding he only seemed to settle with a cuddle to sleep and then whenever he woke he wanted to be cuddled back to sleep, it could take 4+ attempts to transfer him successfully to bed after he'd dozed off on me. Naps were variable with length and he often woke obviously needing mo sleep but unable to get himself settled again.

We decided to go down the traditional controlled crying route, after a lot of reflection I thought he would find it more distressing with me patting and shushing or sitting I the room not doing anything but offering emotional support. He's quite a strong willed character and is prone to biting, slapping and pinching at the best of times, flailing around n the bed head banging was not unusual... I was braced for the couple of hours of going in and out and worse sleep for us all for the first few days but actually the first night it took 10mins, and similar length of time the following few nights. Now we are putting him down at night without any crying at 7 and he's sleeping until 6:30ish, napping well during the day, seems quite a lot happier. It has changed our lives!

I really wanted to give a perspective on cc from a quite painless perspective and I really don't think we've had any detrimental effects to hm. He is older than your lo (15 mo when we started) and as I said I think this suited his personality well. I would highly recommend Nicola to help you work through the specific issues you have and how best to manage them. Good luck!

[minder]

Midivy - 10-12 month olds seem to catch so many coughs/colds/infections and this then interrupts their night-time sleep anyway, but have you tried giving water instead of bottles of milk during the night? You might find he gets bored of waking up to water and settles sooner?

[Saila]

We had the same experience with cc as gooders. Ie left for max of five mins and by then he'd almost always fallen asleep

If not, it was because there was something wrong eg hungry, got into a twist with his blanket etc

It never seemed wrong or stressful, he was just settling himself

Looking and hearing about other ways of settling, it doesn't sound like the babies cry any less ?

In a way a consistent approach may be fairer and then they know to just go to sleep and not scream for rocking or whatever

[Saffron]

Well, pretty much any approach can be made consistent by equal application of all elements of the chosen strategy. Also I think it's important to recognise from a behavioural point of view that sleep training does not teach children how to go to sleep. What it attempts to do, behaviourally speaking, is extinguish crying behaviour.

As far a behavioural paradigms for extinction are concerned gradual withdrawal techniques are specifically designed to involve less crying, and animal models of behaviour have suggested that gradual withdrawal may produce more lasting effects than sudden extinction.

However, reading a strategy in a book and applying it to one's own child can be two completely different things, because of the wide variability in individual responses. If there's only one thing that's true about sleep strategies, it's that there's no such thing as one size fits all.

[midivydale]

Saffron wrote

"However, reading a strategy in a book and applying it to one's own child can be two completely different things, because of the wide variability in individual responses. If there's only one thing that's true about sleep strategies, it's that there's no such thing as one size fits all."

Amen- my son has so far been as far away from a text book baby as I thought was possible. For a controll freak like myself with a academic approcach to problem solving its been an eye opener (to say the least).

Oh how I wish these things (aka babies) came with a manual:)

[Mathilda]

If he is waking for milk you could try not offering it until an hour after he wakes up - just comfort him during this time. After a couple of nights he should wake up later then you can repeat the process.

[nylonmeals]

This was a life saver for us - its a Fisher Price projector http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisher-Price-Wonders-Projector-Soother/dp/B0028K2RN8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1357405320&sr=8-2 that plays soothing music or white noise. We sat it next to our little one's bed so that it projected the image onto the ceiling and that amazingly got him to sleep when he woke during the night at around the same age as yours.

Really surprised us but it worked for us!