Traffic fines around Dulwich village - has anyone appealed successfully

[Rockets]

malumbu Wrote:

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> The government before last (or before that) was

> supposed to deal with excessive enforcement

> charges, aimed at the private clampers. Not sure

> if they delivered in that manifesto commitment.

> They were also keen on reducing town centre

> parking charges, scuppering a wonderful park and

> ride scheme in Coventry where electric buses

> ferried people into the high street. Not very

> joined up thinking from national government.

Shame they didn?t look at excessive charges from council sponsored schemes??the one at the village roundabout is one of the very worst examples of poor implementations which the council seems more than happy to tolerate as it is good for the coffers and punishes those pesky drivers they so love to hate?..

[Zig-Zag]

Thank you for being so public spirited. I walk through Dulwich village several days a week and have been asked by a number of cars if they were allowed to drive on that road. So clearly the signage is very poor.

[malumbu]

It was an off thread go at one of the Tory governments Rocks. As for public spirited I am doing that by cutting my carbon footprint having long since stopped unnecessary driving. Although you could also say with all these threads relating to LTNs this has provided a public service in giving good info on where not to drive. I've found it useful and whilst I seem to have had every sort of fixed penalty notice in the past, certainly wont be getting one with the LTNs.

And on all the comments on LTNs being cash cows for local authority what percentage of revenue does this provide? Will be pretty tiny.

[MCMC]

I got done on Townley road and got the ?130 ticket.

I then went to a kids party and discovered pretty much every parent there had got similar fines. One had run up ?390 in a morning!

He gave me the number of a successful contest at the London Tribunal - case number - 2210358293 - the PCN was not upheld. Reason being as you enter these areas by the time you are level with the signs it's virtually impossible not to drive through and get a fine!!!

If you quote this number you should have your fines overturned for the same reason.

Alternatively I think anyone living in the village should be made to wear luminous orange vests when they come to East Dulwich and bared from parking or using the shops there.

[heartblock]

MCMC - post of the day! Although tabards funnier than vests.

Thankfully I rarely drive, but I walk past these signs and even at my slow speed I'm on top of them before I understand the 'rules'

[horse666]

Hi MCMC - yes, it was me you were speaking to :)

The note above is correct - I was issued with three PCNs, totalling ?390, on consecutive days over half term in June for "33e - Using a route restricted to certain vehicles". The location was at the top of Townley Road, the short section between Calton Avenue and East Dulwich Grove.

I appealed to Southwark and they rejected my case that the signage is inadequate (obscured and misaligned signs on the entry to Townley Road from Lordship Lane).

Incensed, I searched the London Tribunals website (see below, very clunky but the info is there) and found case 2210358293 where the appeal had been upheld.

I submitted my appeal on the London Tribunals website and they upheld it, cancelling all three PCNs. S*rew you Southwark!

My case is not up yet, but if you want to look yourself:

- Go to https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/online-appeals

- Click "Access the appellant portal"

- Click "Statutory Registers"

- Click "Search" under "Environment and Traffic Adjudicators (ETA)"

- Start typing "Southwark" in the "Enforcing authority" box and pick "London Borough of Southwark"

- Type "Townley Road" into "PCN location"

- Click "Search"

Good luck if you appeal also. DM me if you want any more info.

[doogsey]

I made a similar appeal earlier this year, i.e. the signage was inadequate, but the appeal was rejected, so I paid the fine anyway.

Will Southwark reverse paid fines, given that others have appealed successfully? It seems a tad daft that those who know a special number get special treatment.

[KidKruger]

The whole thing is a predatious scam !

[tiddles]

Yup have challenged 35 pcns -all incurred before we received notice of the offence (6-8 weeks before receiving) some have been written off and so me taken to the next level? fingers crossed but not banking on anything. Funny how done were accepted and done not - all challenged on the same basis.

[horse666]

>I made a similar appeal earlier this year...

Same location as mine doogsey? i.e. Townley Road?

[horse666]

FYI, the case reference for my London Tribunals appeal for Townley Road PCNs, which was upheld, is 2210516612.

[Pugwash]

I had to turn into Townley from LL to access Beauval Road to take some shopping to an elderly friend. Would have turned right from LL into Eynella but with bus diversions (12/197) road has been very busy all day and cars having difficulty in finding a space to turn. Hopefully I do not get a ticket! My understanding is that only if you travel the length of Townley (Alleyns end) that you get done.

[DuncanW]

Pretty sure that's right. It's the section up by Calton that you can't drive through.

Although your preferred rout being busy probably wouldn't stand up as an appeal argument if you did get a ticket.

[Rockets]

Yes it is - the threshold is beyond Calton as you head towards the lights.

I noticed recently that they have painted Bus Gate on the road - I don't think that has been there that long has it? I wonder if that is in relation to the Tribunals upholding the appeal and this is the council trying to fix the issue.

Surely if one is upheld on the basis of incorrect or vague signage and then the council takes remedial action then a precedent has been set and all of the fines should be refunded for that junction?

Lots of residents have been telling the council that the signage was not clear enough and it was confusing yet it seems only the threat of tribunals cutting off their cash cow is the catalyst for action!

[intexasatthe moment]

"Surely if one is upheld on the basis of incorrect or vague signage and then the council takes remedial action then a precedent has been set and all of the fines should be refunded for that junction?"

excellent point ,though no doubt there will be an argument that they are just improving something that was adequate .sigh .

[sandyman]

that should be fine - at least I hope it is, we live round there and do that route regularly and have never received a ticket (could be crap postal service of course!).

But this is part of the problem with the signs - the red signs on Lordship Lane say that there is no through road ahead but don't actually tell you exactly where the no through road is - you have to get closer and spot the more detailed sign there, by which time you will have to act sharpish to avoid going the 'banned' way.

Pugwash Wrote:

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> I had to turn into Townley from LL to access

> Beauval Road to take some shopping to an elderly

> friend. Would have turned right from LL into

> Eynella but with bus diversions (12/197) road has

> been very busy all day and cars having difficulty

> in finding a space to turn. Hopefully I do not get

> a ticket! My understanding is that only if you

> travel the length of Townley (Alleyns end) that

> you get done.

[Raised by Bears]

I recieved TWO fines within 1 minute of each other on Burbage juntion and then gallery road. Literally the same stretch. Ridiculous!!!!! Appealing both. Woeful signage and a cash cow venture.

[sjsl]

Agh, no post for months and today I get a penalty charge for driving through the village on 28th December which was officially a bank holiday! I assumed that because it was Mon-Fri that would include bank holidays, is that an unreasonable assumption??

[ianr]

Hmm. From the TMOs listed at https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/traffic-orders-licensing-strategies-and-regulation/traffic-management-orders?chapter=5 I've picked out LSP Dulwich trial Phase 2 (notice dated 15 Oct 2020) as the one that may be the relevant one, and can find no mention in it of bank holidays.

And at https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parking/parking-enforcement-over-christmas-and-on-bank-holidays, mischievously tucked away on a page entitled Parking Enforcement, I find "all traffic regulations will be enforced using CCTV camera" on bank and public holidays.

I don't know if there are any factors that would incline Southwark nevertheless to treat a bank holiday as exceptional. I can see the City of London saying, in the FAQ at https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/services/streets/bank-on-safety, that they don't enforce their own Mon-Fri restriction at the Bank junction on bank holidays; which I read as possibly implying that their TMO, which I can't find, doesn't mention them at all. But even if so, it's only an example of what an LA can do, if they feel like it, for one particular location. Is the Village much different on a bank holiday from any other weekday?

[sjsl]

Thanks Ianr, that's useful information. In answer to your last question, my understanding is that the measure is designed to reduce the added congestion at school pick up and drop off on weekdays. In my mind a bank holiday has the same status as a weekend, and I think this is particularly harsh.

[sandyman]

Except that the restrictions also apply during school holidays. One would think that the technology exists to lift restrictions out of term time. But then there would be less revenue from fines...

sjsl Wrote:

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> Thanks Ianr, that's useful information. In answer

> to your last question, my understanding is that

> the measure is designed to reduce the added

> congestion at school pick up and drop off on

> weekdays. In my mind a bank holiday has the same

> status as a weekend, and I think this is

> particularly harsh.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

The technology exists, but there's a limit to how much text you can put on a roadsign.

[sandyman]

They could simply turn off the cameras when the school hols start and turn them back on when term resumes or if that's too hard not send out fines during school holiday period!

Where there's a will and all that...

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> The technology exists, but there's a limit to how

> much text you can put on a roadsign.

[Reg Smeeton]

Just received a shocking Penalty Charge fine for £195 for driving on Townley Road at 3:30pm in August.

We had no idea we'd done this, and OK, fair cop, I've now seen the photos online. But.... WE NEVER RECEIVED THE ORIGINAL NOTICE FROM SOUTHWARK. This is not a great surprise, as ED post has been atrocious for several months, we often get things weeks after they were posted.

I've told Southwark we're OK to pay the original £65 fine, but the penalty charge feels outrageous. In this Kafkaesque world, do we have any hope of Southwark agreeing to drop the £130 penalty?