Traffic fines around Dulwich village - has anyone appealed successfully

[Pierre]

Giacomelli Wrote:

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> I've had so many fines now in Dulwich (I no longer

> live in ED), I've decided to not go there any more

> for certain shops/cafes - it's too much of a risk.

> I'm often looking out for people crossing the

> road, or other perils in the road and therefore

> haven't noticed the new signs. Where on Southwark

> website can I find a map of the restrictions?

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/transport-and-roads/improving-our-streets/live-projects/our-healthy-streets/our-healthy-streets-dulwich

[above the shops]

Hi Bookshake

Your attachement opens up as symbols on my machine. Could you attach the copy?

I've just been fined for driving through there on Bank Holiday Monday, which surely is pushing it even for them!

Thanks

[Alan Medic]

As a matter of interest has anyone written to our MP about this? Can an MP have any influence over how a Council operates?

[Alan Medic]

Well I appealed. Anyone say how long it takes to get a verdict?

[mfcjoe]

i put an appeal in on the 04/05 and not heard nothing since, apparently there is no legal time limit for them to reply, i suspect that they are overwhelmed with appeal's.

[tiddles]

A small landscaping business has just been hit with a flurry of fines - but they have taken 2 months to arrive which means they have been accruing loads in the interim. Please no one suggest they use a bicycle to transport heavy materials?. Looking at appealing as this feels just wrong for there to he such a delay in sending out

[HannahSE23]

I also appealed in May but I've heard nothing yet. Having done some research the signage doesn't comply with the 2016 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions. There's just not enough warning, nor adequate time to process the restriction while safely trying to get round the roundabout. Will keep you posted...

[Alan Medic]

tiddles Wrote:

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> A small landscaping business has just been hit

> with a flurry of fines - but they have taken 2

> months to arrive which means they have been

> accruing loads in the interim. Please no one

> suggest they use a bicycle to transport heavy

> materials?. Looking at appealing as this feels

> just wrong for there to he such a delay in sending

> out

From what's written above in this thread, the council are legally obliged to issue a PCN within 28 days of the supposed offence. Otherwise it's invalid. I haven't researched this myself but I'm sure it could be easily checked.

[ianr]

I take it you're referring to EDRH1114090399's assertion above, at https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,2180997,2209151#msg-2209151, which s/he posted in several threads. I posted a rejoinder to it, https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,2180997,2203886#msg-2203886 after its first appearance, as has AylwardS, above.

[tiddles]

Thanks Alan medic x

[Alan Medic]

tiddles Wrote:

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> Thanks Alan medic x

Hi tiddles. Hope you read the post following mine. There are exceptions to the 28 day rule apparently, which the Council could fall back on. So say a couple of well informed posters above.

[jimbo1964]

I've been caught out by this and paid it, begrudgingly. I rarely drive around there and wasn't aware of the restrictions. I think if Southwark genuinely wanted people not to get fined they'd put a clear warning on the entrance to the roundabout rather than one you might see only when you're committed (or don't see at all because you're concentrating on the road.

[doogsey]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> Well I appealed. Anyone say how long it takes to

> get a verdict?

I appealed in early May and have just received a response (appeal rejected sadly), so the backlog seems to currently be around 6 - 7 weeks.

They do seem to put a decent effort into the response though and generally respond to each point raised, so kudos to the fines team at Southwark. Nice to see the council working a bit for their revenue.

[Heart108]

boomshake22 Wrote:

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> Thanks, it's worth doing the research, please feel

> free to pass the letter on, yes the pcn says to

> reply in writing on the pcn but the website states

> you can submit online, much easier, again

> misleading info on the pcn.

>

> Whatever convinced them to cancel my pcn,is

> detailed in the letter, so it's an error on their

> part that they are obviously not admitting, and as

> far as I can tell not correcting.

The Council do not have to give any reason for cancelling a PCN - cancellation from their side is 'discretionary'.

It is therefore probably not worth going back to them after you have paid a fine and saying 'yes but someone else said ...'

The only successful approach is to make a polite representation - as legally sound as possible - at the right time on your own behalf.

The reason they make such a fortune is because most people are not experience, dogged, or informed enough to make representations in exactly the right way to get the PCN cancelled. This is all part of the approach set out by those in charge of generating income for the Council, combined with their legal team which will know very clearly what they can and cant get away with at the highest level. ie if someone were to take the legal process to the very end. That is where a judge would rule in favour of Boom - whose expert letter would have won the case, so it is a simple decision for Southwark to cancel such a powerful articulate representation with that kind of legal weight.

Fairness and reasonableness has got nothing to do with it - look over at the thread of the Dulwich Forum on this and lots of people careworkers, parents not familiar with the area trying to drive their kids to the Herne Hill velodrome... all have been caught by the system. The press ought to be involved and challenge the Council to justify their rule making, and NAME who is responsible for conceiving and running this revenue generating scheme.

Boom's letter has the imprimature of a barrister level specialised traffic legal expert - expertise like this is available for free on ( google Pepipoo Fightback forum) where the are a bunch of very very experience traffic solicitors peer reviewing and comparing each other's advice.

[Mrs S]

boomshake22 Wrote:

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> i appealled to the fine entering dulwich village

> and was successful , i have attached my letter

> please edit as required

> you can simply submit this online on the southwark

> parking website, that what i did, add your own

> pics

>

> good luck with this,,, it is an absolute disgrace

> of a cashcow charge

Hi @boomshake22 - thanks to your excellent letter, we?ve just had 7(!) PCNs overturned from May with the exact same circumstances.

We are absolutely thrilled.

We would love to say thank you as your letter really helped us build a decent case. Will send you a private message!

[adrian11]

Another message of thanks to Boomshake, as the PCN I received has been withdrawn, following my submission to LBS using Boomshake's letter as a basis.

We are now in the postion where Alleyns School is not operating until 7th September, however Townley Rd cannot be used during the restricted hours.

I rarely use my car locally, prefering the push bike, however I have now stuck a post-it to the dashboard to remind me to use a different route, along E Dulwich Grove to drive west. I do enjoy a bit of long distance cycling, and 2 weeks ago cycled ED to St Austell in Cornwall. Its around 260miles and took about 22hours, overnight. Unfortunately once you get to Exeter, Dartmoor has to be climbed, and frankly this is an extreme method of avoiding a PCN!

[malumbu]

>

>

> parents not familiar with the area trying to drive

> their kids to the Herne Hill velodrome...

How very ironic. Used to cycle mine there.

And talking about cycling 22 hours overnight and 260 miles Adrian - sounds a bit masochistic! I did 300 km overnight in Sweden once, never again.....

[Alan Medic]

doogsey Wrote:

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> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Well I appealed. Anyone say how long it takes

> to

> > get a verdict?

>

>

> I appealed in early May and have just received a

> response (appeal rejected sadly), so the backlog

> seems to currently be around 6 - 7 weeks.

>

> They do seem to put a decent effort into the

> response though and generally respond to each

> point raised, so kudos to the fines team at

> Southwark. Nice to see the council working a bit

> for their revenue.

I had my appeal rejected though I'm thinking of disputing it. The email stating this was actually from a company called Apcoa Parking, though the use a Southward Parking email address. So I think it's fair to assume the Council is not dealing with these but have outsourced it. The Apcoa Group is made up of very wealthy companies (not surprisingly). The Ultimate Holding Company isn't even in the UK.

This sign was used in their email stating that it's on College Road, which is the direction we approached Dulwich Village from. Has anyone any idea how long the sign has been there since I've no recollection of seeing it in early June?

[alex_b]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> I had my appeal rejected though I'm thinking of

> disputing it. The email stating this was actually

> from a company called Apcoa Parking, though the

> use a Southward Parking email address. So I think

> it's fair to assume the Council is not dealing

> with these but have outsourced it. The Apcoa Group

> is made up of very wealthy companies (not

> surprisingly). The Ultimate Holding Company isn't

> even in the UK.

I think pretty much all councils outsource parking and other traffic enforcement these days.

> This sign was used in their email stating that

> it's on College Road, which is the direction we

> approached Dulwich Village from. Has anyone any

> idea how long the sign has been there since I've

> no recollection of seeing it in early June?

>

> https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/file.php?

> 5,file=397726

I?m pretty certain it has been there since the restrictions were imposed or very shortly afterwards. It was definitely there in June. I run past there very regularly and it was one of the reasons I was surprised people were claiming the signage was inadequate.

[Alan Medic]

Thanks alex_b. I think I'll just pay the fine if that's the case.

[Rockets]

Alan, did you get the ticket for going along Dulwich Village or Burbage. If it was the latter you could claim the sign on Burbage is obscured because of its position so forward on the junction.

[dimples]

I?ve appealed for the latter as exactly that happened to me that Rockets suggested !

[Alan Medic]

Rockets Wrote:

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> Alan, did you get the ticket for going along

> Dulwich Village or Burbage. If it was the latter

> you could claim the sign on Burbage is obscured

> because of its position so forward on the

> junction.

Dulwich Village, Rockets.

[malumbu]

The government before last (or before that) was supposed to deal with excessive enforcement charges, aimed at the private clampers. Not sure if they delivered in that manifesto commitment. They were also keen on reducing town centre parking charges, scuppering a wonderful park and ride scheme in Coventry where electric buses ferried people into the high street. Not very joined up thinking from national government.

[fottos]

I have read Boomshakes excellent letter and since talked to a few others who have had success. All used different grounds for appeal and this suggests that there are distinct benefits in sharing information on successful appeals.

I am willing to collate all the relevant information from those who have succeeded. It can then be compiled into a set of guidelines that can be made available on-line.

So, If you have has success, please send me a PM with the details. Please remove any personal information or car reg details.