The Disunited Kingdom

[Sephiroth]

"A border will only be required if an independent Scotland later joined the EU"

that's not really up for debate is it? Thought Scotland was fast-tracking to EU membership? Part of the whole point?

[diable rouge]

Sure, it was more in response to Meds first sentence, besides it's not a done deal that Scotland would be able to join the EU. Regardless, Sturgeon should at least be having an honest conversation about the prospect of a border if they did rejoin.

I'm not sure what she's frightened of, the anecdotal feedback I'm getting from friends up there is that a lot of people see independence just as much about escaping the clutches of an increasingly right wing english nationalist/populist government, as well as a means to rejoin the EU, and if that means ending up with a border, so be it...

[Seabag]

How about a moat instead, with Gondolas on as an attraction.

Borders sound hostile, but a moat is softer. Maybe call it the Arrangement Moat.

Actually on second thoughts, it could easily freeze over into an ice strip. You could hold international distance skating events on it. People could drive all the way from Ireland Island (over Johnson?s new imaginary bridge) to compete.

Even the Welsh could come, over the sea in their longboats, after they too have dug a massive gully to separate them selves from www.disunitedkingdom.com

I?d say go for it!

[Alan Medic]

In my defence I was assuming that EU membership would be on the cards for Scotland should they vote for independence. It would be gas (amusing)if they got independence and then voted against joining the EU because the majority didn't want a border with England. I'm assuming that there would have to be another referendum on joining the EU, assuming an application to join would be accepted. There's a lot of assumptions in this post.

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sure, it was more in response to Meds first

> sentence, besides it's not a done deal that

> Scotland would be able to join the EU. Regardless,

> Sturgeon should at least be having an honest

> conversation about the prospect of a border if

> they did rejoin.

> I'm not sure what she's frightened of, the

> anecdotal feedback I'm getting from friends up

> there is that a lot of people see independence

> just as much about escaping the clutches of an

> increasingly right wing english

> nationalist/populist government, as well as a

> means to rejoin the EU, and if that means ending

> up with a border, so be it...

Thats all fair enough....I hope they're also prepared for the crippling austerity which will need to be imposed to hit the EU's required Deficit to GDP ratios......even if the EU allows Scotland a transition period to achieve this....the pre-covid level was nearly 3x what the EU requires....

The EU let croatia in with a 5.3% current deficit to GDP ratio in 2013...and let them work it down to the 3% threshold....

But with scotland at ~8-9% pre-covid (and acutally about 22% in covid times - but thats not a sustainable number to be fair) thats quite a change in govt spending and/or taxation to hit the required levels.....

[diable rouge]

You know what's coming...

PROJECT McFEAR!!!!!! :)

[diable rouge]

I have to admit, although neutral on whether Scotland should ne independent or not, I'm enjoying seeing Brexit voters like Cat citing economic data as a reason why Scotland shouldn't leave the Union...

[Spartacus]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You know what's coming...

>

> PROJECT McFEAR!!!!!! :)

Having seen what's under a Scotsman's kilt, project McFear is very much real and uber scary 😱

[Sephiroth]

"I have to admit, although neutral on whether Scotland should ne independent or not, I'm enjoying seeing Brexit voters like Cat citing economic data as a reason why Scotland shouldn't leave the Union..."

The other sign of this coin of course is that Remainers have to be able to say why disruption of Brexit is awful when it's UK leaving EU, but not so bad when Scotland leaves UK

To my mind Scotland leaving the UK is not OK, objectively speaking. It will cause all manner of disruption and problems and had Brexit not happened the previous referendum had settled the matter

But Brexit changed everything - and I do understand why a country which voted to remain in EU by significant margin, can see the problems ahead for the UK, and has a chance to remain in the EU would choose to take that path. And people like me warned this would be a consequence of a Brexit but were dismissed as project fear - but here we are

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to admit, although neutral on whether

> Scotland should ne independent or not, I'm

> enjoying seeing Brexit voters like Cat citing

> economic data as a reason why Scotland shouldn't

> leave the Union...

I'm glad I can make you happy. I am similarly neutral, and simialrly enjoying seeing remainers talking about how despite an economic hit, it's justifiable on principle for Scots to want to get away from an English majority on political principle....

While similar - Brexit and Scexit/screjoin are very different in many fundamental ways, and to draw too many simplistic parallels as we both have above (I believe) is a fundamental mistake.

[j.a.]

Given the ?simplism? (h/t

who has written far more eloquently on the subject than I can) so often found in the Brexit arguments, I?d say simplistic analysis will be about par for the course where Scottish independence is concerned.

Personal view, people involved should learn from the Brexit campaign and subsequent utter f?-ups wherein no one is getting what they want....but they probably won?t.

[Sephiroth]

It's entirely possible that Scotland will vote to stay in Uk

but that won't prevent the Years and Decades of issues arising from Brexit continuously causing division

So until people start to reverse Brexit (in name or in practice - we all know it means aligning with SM and CU) the problems behind all of this will remain

The link posted by JA is from someone who was once an ardent Leaver and whilst no fan of the EU now, has come to realise just how fundamentally broken the very principle of Leave and it's proponents were. I still find him a little glib on occasion but at least he has admitted the mistake

[diable rouge]

Gove saying that focus should be on Covid recovery not independence, while forgetting that his Gov ploughed on with Brexit and the TCA last year, refusing to ask for an extension so the Gov could focus on Covid and saving people's lives.

Another example of this Gov's Brexit tactics about to be thrown back at them...

[Nigello]

It?s a stalemate. Both BoJo and Wee Nippy know they could both fail. They also know that people are not necessarily voting this time simply along yes/no lines ? it was an election and not a referendum so support for staying or leaving cannot be extrapolated. More votes went to unionist parties and certain parts of Scotland are very unlikely to support leaving thr UK, meaning a broken up Scotland itself could come about. I don?t think it (Scexit) will happen though I can see a referendum with much more emphasis on fact, not feeling. Sturgeon is a good politician but her supporters are in part just not willing to scrutinise the party?s claims because her (allegedly ?civic?) nationalism sings to their souls. 🤷‍♂️

[diable rouge]

''They also know that people are not necessarily voting this time simply along yes/no lines ? it was an election and not a referendum so support for staying or leaving cannot be extrapolated.''

I disagree, this election was very much a vote for or against another referendum, just like the last general election was whether you were for or against Brexit. The difference being the Scottish system is more proportional and representative.

''More votes went to unionist parties and certain parts of Scotland are very unlikely to support leaving the UK, meaning a broken up Scotland itself could come about.''

Do you mean more votes in total, i.e. > 50% of the total vote, or do you mean more votes than they achieved at the previous Scottish election?

I can't remember whether you were in favour of Brexit or not, but I've heard similar 'warnings' about the disunity independence would cause in Scotland by Brexity types, oblivious that it's Brexit* that has brought about division in the UK as a whole as well as an increase in support for an independent Scotland, and the possibility of a united Ireland too (the DUP are currently in the process of electing a new leader as a pre-cursor to a future border poll, something I'd never thought I'd be writing a few years ago).

This is yet another example for the Indies to turn around and say if Brexit was good enough for you, independence will be good enough for us despite the downsides.

''Sturgeon is a good politician but her supporters are in part just not willing to scrutinise the party?s claims because her (allegedly ?civic?) nationalism sings to their souls.''

This also equally applies to Brexit and it's supporters.

It's going to be very difficult to criticise Scottish nationalism when the UK itself has gone down the nationalist road by leaving the EU.

*I wasn't in favour of any form of Brexit, but it was possible to end up with a Brexit deal that didn't cause huge division within the UK, thus undermine the Union and further the nationalists' cause. But here we are...

[JohnL]

A long Queens speech response by Ian Blackford wearing a Scottish White Rose saying that Scotland has had no support from England and is being treated badly.

The rose of all the world is not for me.

I want for my part

Only the little white rose of Scotland

That smells sharp and sweet?and breaks the heart.

Boris sitting there looking bored.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ian-blackford-warns-boris-johnson-scotland-is-on-a-different-path-ahead-of-queens-speech-3231547

[Sephiroth]

Global Britain going well I see

purely from a self-interested pov, Uk shouldn't be fostering bad-will like this?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/eu-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled

[JohnL]

Aww no Vaughan Gething has been moved from the Welsh Government health post to the economics post so we won't see him in the news so much.

New face of Welsh health is Eluned Morgan.

Nobody reporting as much on the Welsh Labour reshuffle as much as the one done by Sir Keir.

[Seabag]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Global Britain going well I see

>

> purely from a self-interested pov, Uk shouldn't be

> fostering bad-will like this?

>

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/e

> u-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expe

> lled

You have to bear in mind, that there?s some people who like this kind of behaviour going on. Some of them even post on this forum.

Sending strong messages to those wishing to come here, kinda floats their boats.

It?s what they voted for, and it?s being delivered.

[JohnL]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Global Britain going well I see

>

> purely from a self-interested pov, Uk shouldn't be

> fostering bad-will like this?

>

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/e

> u-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expe

> lled

When all the football fans arrive in Porto they should all be sent to a detention centre on the premise the Portuguese border force have no idea why they aren't in Istanbul and just to see their faces and the right wing press reaction.

[JohnL]

Of course in Scotland a horde of blue painted warriors shouting "freedom" forced the release of some migrants.

I heard Pritti Patel was livid.

[Sephiroth]

I mean - there is just something fundamentally wrong going on

[TheCat]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sephiroth Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Global Britain going well I see

> >

> > purely from a self-interested pov, Uk shouldn't

> be

> > fostering bad-will like this?

> >

> >

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/e

>

> >

> u-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expe

>

> > lled

>

> You have to bear in mind, that there?s some people

> who like this kind of behaviour going on. Some of

> them even post on this forum.

>

> Sending strong messages to those wishing to come

> here, kinda floats their boats.

>

> It?s what they voted for, and it?s being

> delivered.

This is clearly unacceptable, and needs to to be fixed asap.

But can we please move away from this narrative that the UK is the only one doing anything wrong or pushing the envelope, and no matter what transpires, apparently..'this is what they voted for'...(Everytime the EU makes a mis-step (and there have been many) I don't think it's always fair to claim that is what YOU voted for)

I mean, how about the French purposefully holding up the deal that was about to be announced for financial services becuase they want better access for their fisherman to UK waters. If this was the UK doing this, I'm sure you'd be on here saying that they shouldn't have signed the TCA on fishing if they weren't happy with it...and now they're trying to renegotiate, becuase they agreed to a rubbish deal...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/no-10-government-eu-france-delay-city-deal-fishing-brexit-b934950.html%3famp

[Sephiroth]

"I mean, how about the French purposefully holding up the deal that was about to be announced for financial services becuase they want better access for their fisherman to UK waters. If this was the UK doing this, "

this would not have been possible with UK as member of EU - but once again, only UK CHOSE THIS PATH!

People warned the UK they would be treated as a third country and were dismissed

The French are well within their rights to do this - they have not lied about the effects of Brexit to achieve it

EU citizens being treated like this in the UK was another worry for Remainers - again, dismissed

But both are a consequence of something that only the UK wanted - neither would be happening without Brexit. Brexit enables this

[Sephiroth]

"becuase they want better access for their fisherman to UK waters."

and isn't this a misrepresentation of what's happening. Isn't what's happening the French are protesting because the UK broke the terms of the agreement, not because the French don't like the agreement