The Disunited Kingdom

[diable rouge]

This plan to ''save the Union'' has to be up there with giant wave machines to deter migrant crossings in the Channel...

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've found that poll I referred to earlier, it's

> quite the eye

> opener...https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/arti

> cles-reports/2019/06/18/most-conservative-members-

> would-see-party-destroye

>

> Not only were Tory members strongly in favour of

> breaking up the Union, they were just as strongly

> in favour of there being ''significant'' damage to

> the UK economy and even the ''destruction'' of the

> Tory party itself, if it meant delivering Brexit.

> I think it's fair to say that for them at least,

> Brexit was definitely an emotional vote, and I

> suspect for a lot of non-Tory members likewise.

> I've long thought that how Cat came about his

> decision to vote Leave was an outlier, and instead

> most people voted on a more simplistic, emotional

> basis, on the Remain side too.

>

> Any emotional vote very much plays into the

> 'Braveheart' narrative...

Don't disagree.....many people will indeed vote on 'principle' or 'concept' without all the detail. I'm sure most remain voters did exactly the same. Doesn't necessarily make it wrong, it's probably how most people vote in most elections, most of the time.

I probably was an outlier in the amount of independent research I did (it's sort of my job, so wasn't too heroic!). But also, perhaps there are more similar 'outliers' than you think. My biggest objection to the post-referendum back and forth, is the constant assumption that all leave voters are either thick, racist or were hoodwinked. Sure some are....some remain voters were too.

So you and seabag may well be right. And the Scottish will vote with the heart. Fair enough, that's there prerogative.

[KidKruger]

My God, we?re such a backwards nation.

It?s like wearing a shit suit.

[diable rouge]

How do you think some Remain voters were hoodwinked, bearing in mind they were voting for the status quo?...

[TheCat]

More referring to people voting on principle. I know some remain voters who did absolutley no research, and their only rationale for voting remain was 'I'm not a rascist'.

Of course a good thing to aspire to, but not exactly any more informed than the charactiture of the standard leave voter is it?

With regards to hoodwinked...well we could go over all the 'lies' of the remain campaign....but that's a can or worms that been opened many times before...

[Seabag]

Cat

Nobody (apart from you) mentioned ?thick, racist or hoodwinked? and I was very careful to be more rounded in my phrasing.

So can we leave that bit out here on in please.

Gut feeling is a big part of the reason people vote as they do, and like you alluded to, not many people go to great lengths to measure the arguments as you did etc.

But Scotland is hearts and minds and a whole back history of resentment agains Westminister. And this current Team Westminister are pretty tone deaf on matters beyond their own wants. Lots of talking at people, not much talking to people. And I think Scotland is done with that on the whole.

Oh and barefaced Brexit shafting (even you must admit this has been shockingly bad for them) the fishing industry is probably a final distillation of enough is enough for many. No shell fish exports until April?! I wonder how that going down. Timing wise, not great for some bluff ?better together? TPHQ type sloganeering.

To add insult to injury, George Eustice uses the phrase ?teething problems? and this is a man who apart from being in UKIP was also in PR, amazingly.

[TheCat]

"

Nobody (apart from you) mentioned ?thick, racist or hoodwinked? and I was very careful to be more rounded in my phrasing."

Wasn't referring to any specific comments. Mean the dominant public narrative of the 'typical' leaver as seen by most 'typical' remainers.

But I'm pretty sure a quick search of this forum would unearth a bountiful list of comments which characterise leave voters in this way.

I've posted this one before, but Jonathan Pie describes it well...

Anyway.....I'm getting off topic now, so I'll stop!

[JohnL]

Seabag Wrote:

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> But Scotland is hearts and minds and a whole back

> history of resentment agains Westminister. And

> this current Team Westminister are pretty tone

> deaf on matters beyond their own wants. Lots of

> talking at people, not much talking to people. And

> I think Scotland is done with that on the whole.

>

Many don't get the resentment Scotland, Wales and others feel due to history. So many in the past assumed England is the UK. What is this plan to send Prince Edward to Scotland - who came up with that.

In Wales it's only fear of rule by Cardiff that keeps many hanging on, not a love of the UK and gradually that fear will fade.

[JohnL]

"After all, if there?s one group that Scots get along with famously, it?s royals called Edward. (Just not Edward I, or Edward II)."

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19070499.prince-edward-live-scotland-stop-snp-save-union-no10-says/

[alex_b]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh and barefaced Brexit shafting (even you must

> admit this has been shockingly bad for them) the

> fishing industry is probably a final distillation

> of enough is enough for many. No shell fish

> exports until April?! I wonder how that going

> down. Timing wise, not great for some bluff

> ?better together? TPHQ type sloganeering.

Weirdly I think this could be a double edged sword. At the moment I?m sure it?s playing strongly towards the independence vote, but in 12-18 months when the referendum happens, might people feel that the damage has been done and that another 2-4 years of doing it all again to leave the UK and rejoin the EU will just compound the damage? I think a lot will be down to the EUs position on accession, agreement to roll-over UK terms followed by a rapid accession probably tips things towards independence, but Spain might block that type of overture.

[Blah Blah]

Oh Cat, it is a bit rich of you to claim some remainers voted on on instinct and did no research when ignorance so typified a lot of leave voters and the lies they were sold. You were actually doing very well in your counter arguments until that point.

[Seabag]

From Gavin Esler?s new book

?England is fundamentally broken. Westminster is the problem and unless there is reform all round it cannot be fixed. International comparisons, however, do not always help. For instance, Germany works as a federal state in part because the Germans had the good sense to abolish Prussia; there seems little enthusiasm in England for its own abolition.?

https://apple.news/AP7WkW1AYSUKI2_mOwIsCQg

[TheCat]

Topical article today illustrating what I was talking about previously on this thread, that the currency issue makes this a very different proposition from brexit....

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/scotland-s-next-financial-crisis

People may well vote with their hearts...but with a massive fiscal deficit, and no ability to issue your own currency... a vote for Scottish independence is a vote for Scottish austerity (even the snp acknowledge this in their own economic reports).

Those opposed may argue that sensible economic forecast were similarly ignored in the brexit process....but the as I've said, the currency issue means it's chalk and cheese I'm afraid....

[????]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seabag Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > But Scotland is hearts and minds and a whole

> back

> > history of resentment agains Westminister. And

> > this current Team Westminister are pretty tone

> > deaf on matters beyond their own wants. Lots of

> > talking at people, not much talking to people.

> And

> > I think Scotland is done with that on the

> whole.

> >

>

> Many don't get the resentment Scotland, Wales and

> others feel due to history. So many in the past

> assumed England is the UK. What is this plan to

> send Prince Edward to Scotland - who came up with

> that.

>

> In Wales it's only fear of rule by Cardiff that

> keeps many hanging on, not a love of the UK and

> gradually that fear will fade.

Maybe it?s because it?s a largely manufactured narrative believed by the historically ignorant. 11/55 of our prime ministers have been Scottish for example. The Scottish and Welsh have played a pivotal role in our politics, history and empire ( although like everything else nowadays it?s- ?wasn?t us guv was the awful English. Don?t tell the Irish and Scots embracing their duel celtic broship where the Protestant settlers of Ulster originally came from by the way: Clue: it wasn?t Surrey. I know it?s all become truth of such as it?s believed but it?s largely built on bullshit

[Seabag]

More jolly sensitivity to the cause. Just what?s needed, a tone mutton Tory boy waving a cloth on a stick.

https://apple.news/A9UAW34B6R9mX-uRcDBhz3g

[JohnL]

Seabag Wrote:

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> More jolly sensitivity to the cause. Just what?s

> needed, a tone mutton Tory boy waving a cloth on a

> stick.

> https://apple.news/A9UAW34B6R9mX-uRcDBhz3g

When you go to hospital you don't really care what the logo is on the E111 form (guess it's not that any longer)

https://www.applyghic.co.uk/?gclid=Cj0KCQiA34OBBhCcARIsAG32uvNumOKk2kSwng5FE7opL94dERKPK69EaV1oaY4aYMlZs8rSn61pxxUaAvx-EALw_wcB

[Seabag]

When sending ?stuff? between the UK & the UK is made near impossible by Brexit, you know something is very very wrong, and in this case it?s a massive understatement.

Ireland will reunite, and who can blame them. The Union is dying, it?s got a terminal disease called the Tory Party. Tone deaf, wilfully blind, liars.

https://apple.news/Agv5kwAf_SnC8R9gwC0eniQ

[????]

?Ireland will unite?

Some not inconsiderable issues with this including.

Dublin taking over the ?10bn subsidy that NI currently gets from the UK

Adding 50% to the republic?s population overnight including around a million or so who wouldn?t really support this including several thousand pyschopathic extreme unionist morons who wouldn?t accept this.

The 2 million people of Northern Ireland giving up their free healthcare

Not saying it?s not possible, the republic itself sacrificed reasonable economic security itself to gain independence, and didn?t really recover from this until it joined the EU, but thinking this is a given at the click of a finger is somewhat naive

[Seabag]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?Ireland will unite?

>

> Some not inconsiderable issues with this

> including.

>

>

> Dublin taking over the ?10bn subsidy that NI

> currently gets from the UK

> Adding 50% to the republic?s population overnight

> including around a million or so who wouldn?t

> really support this including several thousand

> pyschopathic extreme unionist morons who wouldn?t

> accept this.

> The 2 million people of Northern Ireland giving up

> their free healthcare

>

> Not saying it?s not possible, the republic itself

> sacrificed reasonable economic security itself to

> gain independence, and didn?t really recover from

> this until it joined the EU, but thinking this is

> a given at the click of a finger is somewhat naive

Nothing?s easy, but the slide is seemingly inevitable, only how fast is the question. And even if it takes decades, it?s the hearts and minds thing, where people want to leave, where they?ve spiritually accepted their relationship with the Union is over, like being in a loveless marriage. It weighs on both sides, and gives further fuel to the lack of unity in a ?United Kingdom?. I mean just that ?UK? thing sounds like a thing of the past, outdated, stale and not fit for purpose. It doesn?t sound like the future very much.

The unionist psycho?s are definitely a concern.

[alex_b]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?Ireland will unite?

>

> Some not inconsiderable issues with this

> including.

>

>

> Dublin taking over the ?10bn subsidy that NI

> currently gets from the UK

> Adding 50% to the republic?s population overnight

> including around a million or so who wouldn?t

> really support this including several thousand

> pyschopathic extreme unionist morons who wouldn?t

> accept this.

> The 2 million people of Northern Ireland giving up

> their free healthcare

>

> Not saying it?s not possible, the republic itself

> sacrificed reasonable economic security itself to

> gain independence, and didn?t really recover from

> this until it joined the EU, but thinking this is

> a given at the click of a finger is somewhat naive

You?re points are certainly reasonable (not sure about the healthcare point or how meaningful that would be), but on the other hand it?s unthinkable that Dublin would say no to unification if a majority in Northern Ireland wanted it. It was a founding principle of the Republic and part of the constitution until 1999. I see it as similar to German re-unification it?ll be complicated and painful in some respects but once it has been requested I cannot see it being prevented.

[????]

A Brexiter could repeat that back to you almost word for word around the EU

[????]

Post above for Seabag not Alex

[Seabag]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A Brexiter could repeat that back to you almost

> word for word around the EU

Quite possibly

[Alan Medic]

alex_b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ?Ireland will unite?

> >

> > Some not inconsiderable issues with this

> > including.

> >

> >

> > Dublin taking over the ?10bn subsidy that NI

> > currently gets from the UK

> > Adding 50% to the republic?s population

> overnight

> > including around a million or so who wouldn?t

> > really support this including several thousand

> > pyschopathic extreme unionist morons who

> wouldn?t

> > accept this.

> > The 2 million people of Northern Ireland giving

> up

> > their free healthcare

> >

> > Not saying it?s not possible, the republic

> itself

> > sacrificed reasonable economic security itself

> to

> > gain independence, and didn?t really recover

> from

> > this until it joined the EU, but thinking this

> is

> > a given at the click of a finger is somewhat

> naive

>

> You?re points are certainly reasonable (not sure

> about the healthcare point or how meaningful that

> would be), but on the other hand it?s unthinkable

> that Dublin would say no to unification if a

> majority in Northern Ireland wanted it. It was a

> founding principle of the Republic and part of the

> constitution until 1999. I see it as similar to

> German re-unification it?ll be complicated and

> painful in some respects but once it has been

> requested I cannot see it being prevented.

Just to add that a referendum would decide it, not the Dublin government.

[Seabag]

A whole two weeks was obviously too much for Oliver

https://apple.news/AXn9iROIZSEuDZ_kOtxlD6A