Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[keano77]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keano, name me one element of the NIP that the EU

> has contravened. If you can do that then there

> would already be a case for third party

> intervention/arbitration etc, because there will

> be a mechanism in the agreement for such a

> scenario. And you can guarantee that if this was

> indeed the case we'd be hearing about it non-stop

> from Leavers. Instead we get constant gaslighting

> about the NIP as if it's been imposed on us

> against our will, conveniently ignoring that

> parliament wasn't allowed time to properly

> scrutinise it, which in turn was clapped and

> cheered like performing seals by the Brexit

> supporting press.

>

I am not sure the EU has contravened any aspects of the NIP in a strictly legal sense. Nor have I argued that is the case. But as the EU does like to hide behind legal contracts I would point out, with reference to Peter Lilley on Newsnight, article 6.2 of the protocol mentions that the parties would try to avoid controls at ports and airports in Northern Ireland. This clearly isn?t the case. Hence accusations of the EU?s rigid approach and intransigence and inflamed tensions that are jeopardising the peace process. You forget the EU also signed up to this protocol and so are jointly responsible for the tensions.

> And what is this so-called 'bad faith'. What does

> that even mean in the context of the NIP? Again,

> give me examples instead of conjuring up

> manufactured phoney wars about ham sandwiches. Try

> taking a ham sandwich through US customs or a

> CANZAC country and see how far you get.

I don?t see the relevance of your North American example. You and I both know of many examples of businessmen frustrated by EU bureaucratic form filling for products they have been supplying to Europe for many years. Suddenly there are questions of bits of British soil on vegetables, apples grow on trees, trees grow in soil and so on. Soil that was perfectly acceptable on vegetables one minute became unacceptable the next because technically we were a third country. This is what I mean by bad faith. It?s over zealous petty officialdom. A rigid application of processes that lacks commonsense. Many a scoundrel hides behind the letter of the law.

>

> If you want actual bad faith or as is often the

> case, downright lies, look no further than the

> British PM telling a group of NI business people

> that there would be no border down the Irish Sea.

> Where's your outrage at that?

Not my problem

>

> The problem is and always has been your British

> exceptionalism, you won't accept the known

> consequences of what you voted for...

You call it British exceptionalism and yearn for closer ties with the EU as a solution. But that would tie our hands and prevent us doing deals with others. You can be sure trade deals with the US will be discussed with Biden and his team at the G7 this week.

[diable rouge]

The Gov didn't 'find' themselves in a situation of sign the deal or leave with no deal, they willfully engineered it. They could've asked to extend the transition period and given themselves more time to negotiate - Dominic Raab take note, that's actually what being pragmatic and flexible looks like, especially in the midst of a global pandemic. But no, that wasn't deemed Brexity enough for the purists...

[diable rouge]

Not my problem

Wow, just wow...

[keano77]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not my problem

>

> Wow, just wow...

Sorry to disappoint but I don?t have any control over what our Prime Minister says.

[zerkalo]

This hasn't aged very well. Who would have thought?

[keano77]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Gov didn't 'find' themselves in a situation of

> sign the deal or leave with no deal, they

> willfully engineered it. They could've asked to

> extend the transition period and given themselves

> more time to negotiate - Dominic Raab take note,

> that's actually what being pragmatic and flexible

> looks like, especially in the midst of a global

> pandemic. But no, that wasn't deemed Brexity

> enough for the purists...

The EU signed the deal and made it an International Treaty. They see the damage their interpretation and implementation of the rules is causing. Question: what are they going to do to minimise the difficulties?

[diable rouge]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Not my problem

> >

> > Wow, just wow...

>

> Sorry to disappoint but I don?t have any control

> over what our Prime Minister says.

You don't have any control over what the EU says but that doesn't stop you gibbering shite...

[diable rouge]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> diable rouge Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The Gov didn't 'find' themselves in a situation

> of

> > sign the deal or leave with no deal, they

> > willfully engineered it. They could've asked to

> > extend the transition period and given

> themselves

> > more time to negotiate - Dominic Raab take

> note,

> > that's actually what being pragmatic and

> flexible

> > looks like, especially in the midst of a global

> > pandemic. But no, that wasn't deemed Brexity

> > enough for the purists...

>

> The EU signed the deal and made it an

> International Treaty. They see the damage their

> interpretation and implementation of the rules is

> causing. Question: what are they going to do to

> minimise the difficulties?

And the gibbering shite continues.

*Unsubscribes...*

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

>

> *Unsubscribes...*

well..thank f@ck for that.....:)

somehow I dont think it will last....

[j.a.]

>

> If you want actual bad faith or as is often the

> case, downright lies, look no further than the

> British PM telling a group of NI business people

> that there would be no border down the Irish Sea.

> Where's your outrage at that?

Not my problem

>

Dude, seriously?

You can?t see where that makes you look like you don?t give a f? about N Ireland? In which case I refer you to the latest declaration of Julia Hartley Brewer.

Seriously, if you say the whole NI thing isn?t your problem, then I don?t see how you can contort that into caring about when happens there, but hey, you do you?

The EU signed the deal and made it an International Treaty. They see the damage their interpretation and implementation of the rules is causing. Question: what are they going to do to minimise the difficulties?

Again, I?m not quite clear as to why this is exclusively the fault of the EU, but I suspect I never will be, seeing as there were two parties signatory to the deal and I reckon that means both sides need to accept their share of responsibility.

All I see here is Leavers claiming it?s entirely the EU?s fault, for (checks notes) sticking to the legal text of the thing.

Again, David Allen Green?check out that link.

? . Im not sure who all these people are you're referring to who trumpeted how amazing the NIP was??...?

You don?t remember the entire hierarchy of the Tory party, plus people like, ooooh, Kate Hoey and Nigel Farage, plus The Telegraph, Express, Sun and Mail, all cheerleading for it? You don?t remember poll after poll showing how people just wanted to ?get Brexit done??

Seriously, were you living under a rock last year? Because the Leave community got very firmly behind it. There wasn?t a lot of discussion about it being imperfect (some, not a lot) and generally speaking it was delivered as ?oven ready?. Then the problems started. Because it hadn?t actually been thought through. If the EU is now causing the UK trouble, it?s because the UK *agreed to a deal that lets them do that!*.

You had the chance for No Deal. You didn?t take it, despite tremendous public support for it amongst the Brexit-supporting public. Wonder why that was??

[TheCat]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> ? . Im not sure who all these people are you're

> referring to who trumpeted how amazing the NIP

> was??...?

>

> You don?t remember the entire hierarchy of the

> Tory party, plus people like, ooooh, Kate Hoey and

> Nigel Farage, plus The Telegraph, Express, Sun and

> Mail, all cheerleading for it? You don?t remember

> poll after poll showing how people just wanted to

> ?get Brexit done??

>

No. I dont remember that at all.

If you're referring to esxcitemnt over the withdrawal agreement overall (of which the NIP is just one component) or the TCA in its entirety...then yes, I do recall that.

But with specific reference to the NIP (which is what we are discussing, no?)....I dont recall widespread trumpeting at all.

[j.a.]

The NIP is part of the WA.

If it?s unacceptable now, why was nobody mentioning it back then?

Possibly because they figured to shove the whole thing through (IDS telling the HoC not to waste time reading it) and change it later?

Why would they agree to a deal that contained something bad? They seemed pretty happy about it at the time, then suddenly?

[Sephiroth]

That pic of David Davis (no paperwork) in front of EU counterparts (lot's of paperwork) and him boasting afterwords about how it shows how easy all of this is .... it's something one can't shake about everything since

Not prepared to put the work in - either in prep, or in enacting what they agree. They should have been warning business over last couple of years to prep for this exact situation - instead we have video Johnson telling business that if anyone asks them for paperwork, give it to him and he will rip it up

This is not normal or grown up behaviour

[keano77]

Yes, but at the risk of upsetting anyone else ...

For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in with highlighter pens etc the EU is now jeopardising the peace process.

Staged photographs can be deceptive.

[diable rouge]

Pretty disingenuous to say the 'excitement' was about the WA as a whole and not specifically the NIP, especially when you consider the Irish border problem was THE reason why we were hurtling towards a No Deal scenario, the proverbial can that got kicked down the road over several years, that led to a couple of extensions and even the fall of a PM.

It's like all the cheering and backslapping that greeted Johnson's breakthrough walk-in-the-garden moment with the Taoiseach and the subsequent dashed meetings to Brussels never happened...

[Sephiroth]

"For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in with highlighter pens etc the EU is now jeopardising the peace process. "

This is a really dumb statement amongst many dumb statements - Brexit meant this, and we told you. You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions it has - UK has done that in full knowledge of what it means.

Own

Your

Shit

FFS

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Pretty disingenuous to say the 'excitement' was

> about the WA as a whole and not specifically the

> NIP, especially when you consider the Irish border

> problem was THE reason why we were hurtling

> towards a No Deal scenario, the proverbial can

> that got kicked down the road over several years,

> that led to a couple of extensions and even the

> fall of a PM.

>

> It's like all the cheering and backslapping that

> greeted Johnson's breakthrough walk-in-the-garden

> moment with the Taoiseach and the subsequent

> dashed meetings to Brussels never happened...

"Re-subscribes"

[diable rouge]

"Re-subscribes"

'Unsubscribes' was shorthand for ''don't bother wasting your time replying as I can't be arsed engaging with your fuckwittery'', and wasn't a bail-out of the thread as a whole.

You're not as insightful as you like to think you are...

[j.a.]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, but at the risk of upsetting anyone else ...

>

> For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in

> with highlighter pens etc the EU is now

> jeopardising the peace process.

>

> Staged photographs can be deceptive.

Seriously?! Really?

It?s *ALL* the EU?s fault? You think absolutely none of this is down to the UK govt in any way, shape or form?

Ok then. Not much more to say really.

[Sephiroth]

it's amazing - you make a point about the EU being more prepared and into the detail in all of this (witness the UK shock at what is in the protocol) and keano boils it down to colouring in paragraphs with highlighter pens and blaming the other side

[keano77]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured in

> with highlighter pens etc the EU is now

> jeopardising the peace process. "

>

> This is a really dumb statement amongst many dumb

> statements - Brexit meant this, and we told you.

> You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU

> hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions it

> has - UK has done that in full knowledge of what

> it means.

>

> Own

> Your

> Shit

>

> FFS

(Munching on a Cumberland sausage sandwich slathered in Coleman?s English mustard)

[keano77]

Oh dear, the beginning of the end?

EU threatens to sue itself for going soft on strongmen leaders

European Parliament says it will hit Commission with legal action unless it triggers clauses linking EU cash to respect for the rule of law

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/10/eu-threatens-sue-going-soft-strongmen-leaders/

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Re-subscribes"

>

> 'Unsubscribes' was shorthand for ''don't bother

> wasting your time replying as I can't be arsed

> engaging with your fuckwittery'', and wasn't a

> bail-out of the thread as a whole.

>

> You're not as insightful as you like to think you

> are...

Lighten-up pal. Believe it or not I somehow managed to crack your enigma code. Its a joke.

[j.a.]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sephiroth Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > "For all the preparation, paragraphs coloured

> in

> > with highlighter pens etc the EU is now

> > jeopardising the peace process. "

> >

> > This is a really dumb statement amongst many

> dumb

> > statements - Brexit meant this, and we told

> you.

> > You wouldn't listen then and you won't now. EU

> > hasn't forced UK to make any of the decisions

> it

> > has - UK has done that in full knowledge of

> what

> > it means.

> >

> > Own

> > Your

> > Shit

> >

> > FFS

>

>

> (Munching on a Cumberland sausage sandwich

> slathered in Coleman?s English mustard)

Keano dude, either engage in debate or be a juvenile troll. It?s up to you, I really don?t care which, but pick one and stick with it. Your whole ?now I?m serious, now I?m joking? schtick long since became tiresome.

[Earl Aelfheah]

At what point will the UK stop blaming our problems on the EU?