Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[keano77]

Morning Sephiroth.

I see you?ve woken up and smelt the sizzling sausages.

[Sephiroth]

You really are Johnson?s target audience aren?t you

Happy to blame others

Glib about serious issues

[Earl Aelfheah]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Republic leaves the EU. Problem solved and

> they an feast on delicious British sausages.

Or the UK rejoins the EU

[Sephiroth]

or at least re-aligns via SM & CU

which is what is going to happen

because it is the only solution which is in UK's OWN interests (and which was also promised by many Leavers)

Only question is how much damage and time before then

[Alan Medic]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Morning Sephiroth.

>

> I see you?ve woken up and smelt the sizzling

> sausages.

No need for NI to import British sausages though....

 

[keano77]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You really are Johnson?s target audience aren?t

> you

>

> Happy to blame others

> Glib about serious issues

On a serious note. The protocol isn?t working. The problem appears to be the way the EU is interpreting and applying the rules.

Peter Lilley, now Lord Lilley, was on Newsnight recently and said something to the effect that more checks were being carried out at NI ports than the whole of Europe for imports from the rest of the world. Now I don?t know if this is a fact and I might have misheard him correctly.

Now, it is of the utmost importance that the GFA be protected. I would propose that instead of all the threats coming from the EU an independent International body and journalists monitor exactly what EU officials are doing at NI ports and produce a report.

The world can then make its mind up whether the EU is taking the p@ss and just squawking for the sake of it or whether it is fully justified in confiscating lorry drivers? ham sandwiches.

[Blah Blah]

The truth is this is that Boris was happy to agree to anything to meet his 'Get Brexit Done' deadline. In reality though, all he did was kick the can down the road. And it is not just NI. Fishing will all have to be negotiated again within five years. If we do not honor agreements we have signed, then it can be no surprise if the other side impose tarifs etc.

At the end of the day Boris is a snake who would sell his own mother if he had to. Meanwhile, export business if facing really severe issues. People who work hard and are losing everything they have worked for. By the time Liz Truss is finished, the UK's farmers, and fishermen, will be hung out to dry, along with a whole range of other sectors. Trade deals are not done 'in an afternoon', never have been, and never will be.

[Sephiroth]

"On a serious note. The protocol isn?t working. The problem appears to be the way the EU is interpreting and applying the rules. "

The protocol is working exactly as designed and agreed, signed off by UK govt. None of what is happening is a surprise. It isn't down to interpretation.

The problem is the portion of British public that thinks they can do what they like and not face any consequences. If you don't like this outcome, may I suggest you don't understand what you voted for

And by consequence, I don't mean punishment. I mean consequence. UK chose hardest possible of Brexits for no godo reason - the consequence of that choice is not having alignment and not requiring checks

There are many countries who can't get their goods (including sausage meat) into the UK because of UK rules. The UK has rules and it enforces them - to keep suggesting other countries should just give UK a free pass is weird

[j.a.]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> On a serious note. The protocol isn?t working. The

> problem appears to be the way the EU is

> interpreting and applying the rules.

>

> Peter Lilley, now Lord Lilley, was on Newsnight

> recently and said something to the effect that

> more checks were being carried out at NI ports

> than the whole of Europe for imports from the rest

> of the world. Now I don?t know if this is a fact

> and I might have misheard him correctly.

>

> Now, it is of the utmost importance that the GFA

> be protected. I would propose that instead of all

> the threats coming from the EU an independent

> International body and journalists monitor exactly

> what EU officials are doing at NI ports and

> produce a report.

>

> The world can then make its mind up whether the EU

> is taking the p@ss and just squawking for the sake

> of it or whether it is fully justified in

> confiscating lorry drivers? ham sandwiches.

Do you genuinely believe that even after the NIC was campaigned on by Conservatives, supported by Leave, and passed by a democratic Parliament, that somehow - somehow - it?s *still* the fault of the EU?

Mate, so many Leave bigwigs were *fully behind this deal* (do I need to remind you of what IDS said?). It?s plain that the said whatever they needed to get it over the line, figuring they could try and change things later (Micheal Gove anyone?).

This deal was signed up to by UK Gov, and for you to now say it?s the EU?s fault *entirely* is utterly rancid.

Maybe the Protocol does need to be altered, but I have no idea how you do that. Your flippant remark regarding Irish Unification would run foul of Poots and co.

Like many Leavers, you seem insistent on blaming the EU for *everything*. It?s pretty sad to see.

[TheCat]

Remainers: "You cant change anything about the NIP, its what was signed up to."

Also Remainers: "We should change absolutely everything and rejoin the single market"

[keano77]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > On a serious note. The protocol isn?t working.

> The

> > problem appears to be the way the EU is

> > interpreting and applying the rules.

> >

> > Peter Lilley, now Lord Lilley, was on Newsnight

> > recently and said something to the effect that

> > more checks were being carried out at NI ports

> > than the whole of Europe for imports from the

> rest

> > of the world. Now I don?t know if this is a

> fact

> > and I might have misheard him correctly.

> >

> > Now, it is of the utmost importance that the

> GFA

> > be protected. I would propose that instead of

> all

> > the threats coming from the EU an independent

> > International body and journalists monitor

> exactly

> > what EU officials are doing at NI ports and

> > produce a report.

> >

> > The world can then make its mind up whether the

> EU

> > is taking the p@ss and just squawking for the

> sake

> > of it or whether it is fully justified in

> > confiscating lorry drivers? ham sandwiches.

>

>

> Do you genuinely believe that even after the NIC

> was campaigned on by Conservatives, supported by

> Leave, and passed by a democratic Parliament, that

> somehow - somehow - it?s *still* the fault of the

> EU?

>

Yes. They are acting in bad faith in the interpretation and application of the rules. Partly to frighten other EU members who are thinking of leaving (Poland is looking 50/50).

> Mate, so many Leave bigwigs were *fully behind

> this deal* (do I need to remind you of what IDS

> said?). It?s plain that the said whatever they

> needed to get it over the line, figuring they

> could try and change things later (Micheal Gove

> anyone?).

You could be right here

>

> This deal was signed up to by UK Gov, and for you

> to now say it?s the EU?s fault *entirely* is

> utterly rancid.

Let an Independent inquiry look into how the EU is applying the deal. What are you frightened of?

>

> Maybe the Protocol does need to be altered, but I

> have no idea how you do that. Your flippant remark

> regarding Irish Unification would run foul of

> Poots and co.

Agreed.

>

> Like many Leavers, you seem insistent on blaming

> the EU for *everything*. It?s pretty sad to see.

Not everything. There are many positives to the EU when they are not threatening and trying to blackmail the UK into submission. We?ve even allowed them to have an ambassador although the EU doesn?t qualify.

[Sephiroth]

it doesn't matter how often keano says it, the EU isn't acting in bad faith or threatening or blackmailing anyone here - what is wrong with basic comprehension?

as for

"Remainers: "You cant change anything about the NIP, its what was signed up to."

Also Remainers: "We should change absolutely everything and rejoin the single market""

no-one I know is saying exactly either of those things - but to take the general thrust of your point, what's the problem?

rejoining the single market isn't changing absolutely everything - UK will still have left the EU, various logistics problems will be solved, and is the sort of mutual recognition that trade deals usually consist of (unlike this mutant version where UK is loudly exclaiming it must be free of all ties but wants the benefits anyway)

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> it doesn't matter how often keano says it, the EU

> isn't acting in bad faith or threatening or

> blackmailing anyone here - what is wrong with

> basic comprehension?

>

>

> as for

>

> "Remainers: "You cant change anything about the

> NIP, its what was signed up to."

>

> Also Remainers: "We should change absolutely

> everything and rejoin the single market""

>

> no-one I know is saying exactly either of those

> things - but to take the general thrust of your

> point, what's the problem?

>

> rejoining the single market isn't changing

> absolutely everything - UK will still have left

> the EU, various logistics problems will be solved,

> and is the sort of mutual recognition that trade

> deals usually consist of (unlike this mutant

> version where UK is loudly exclaiming it must be

> free of all ties but wants the benefits anyway)

so...what you're saying is you are trying solve a problem by looking to alter an prior agreement? no problem at all...sounds very reasonable to me.....

[Sephiroth]

that... still doesn't make any sense?

I know you are trying to put words in my mouth but it isn't quite working

There are mechanisms in place to allow less friction - we can use them without reneging on contracts/treatiesetc or showing we don't understand the first thing we signed (despite not allowing parliament to debate the thing we are complaining about)

Not all solutions are the same. Stop comparing apples and oranges

[j.a.]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Remainers: "You cant change anything about the

> NIP, its what was signed up to."

>

> Also Remainers: "We should change absolutely

> everything and rejoin the single market"

Not all Remainers. We?re not a homogenous bloc (and neither are Leavers) as I think you?d agree. There?s extremes and echo chambers on all sides of every debate.

[j.a.]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes. They are acting in bad faith in the

> interpretation and application of the rules.

> Partly to frighten other EU members who are

> thinking of leaving (Poland is looking 50/50).

>

>

Maybe. But the point remains that we agreed to the deal. It?s a bad negotiation team that later claims to be surprised by something the other side is doing that is within the *legal boundaries*. https://davidallengreen.com/2021/06/beware-lord-frosts-legal-purism-line-for-it-means-a-disregard-for-the-rule-of-law-and-is-strategically-unwise/

We agreed to this. We had a chance to go for No Deal, we didn?t. As much as the editor of the Telegraph may huff and puff, we agreed to this.

Also, if you want to talk about bad faith, remember we threatened to break the law ?in a very specific way?. Stones and glass houses comes to mind.

> > Mate, so many Leave bigwigs were *fully behind

> > this deal* (do I need to remind you of what IDS

> > said?). It?s plain that the said whatever they

> > needed to get it over the line, figuring they

> > could try and change things later (Micheal Gove

> > anyone?).

>

> You could be right here

> >

> > This deal was signed up to by UK Gov, and for

> you

> > to now say it?s the EU?s fault *entirely* is

> > utterly rancid.

>

> Let an Independent inquiry look into how the EU is

> applying the deal. What are you frightened of?

Got no problem with that.

> >

> > Maybe the Protocol does need to be altered, but

> I

> > have no idea how you do that. Your flippant

> remark

> > regarding Irish Unification would run foul of

> > Poots and co.

>

> Agreed.

> >

> > Like many Leavers, you seem insistent on

> blaming

> > the EU for *everything*. It?s pretty sad to

> see.

>

> Not everything. There are many positives to the EU

> when they are not threatening and trying to

> blackmail the UK into submission. We?ve even

> allowed them to have an ambassador although the EU

> doesn?t qualify.

What I mean is that I cannot see how you blame the EU *entirely* for issues surrounding the Protocol.

We literally agreed to it. No one held a gun to our head, this isn?t the Opium Wars, we could?ve walked away for No Deal. The Conservative Party was fully behind it, as was the Leave-supporting press. Fully.

To turn around now and claim we?ve been had, duped, bullied, whatever, looks like we didn?t read it properly at best (paging Ian Duncan Smith) or didn?t understand it at worst (paging Boris Johnson). Or maybe we just thought we?d somehow be able to wriggle out of it?? If so, that?s some serious can-kicking.

[Sephiroth]

When parliament was trying to examine or kick the tyres of the protocol to see if it was fit for purpose, it wasn't the EU railroading it through the common s

That was the UK govt who wouldn't allow any time. IDS guffawing about the whole thing had been talked to death. Chortling from the govt benches. Thunderous leaders from the Telegraph etc to get a move on

This is all on the govt (and it's supporters) - blaming any other party, just won't do

[diable rouge]

Keano, name me one element of the NIP that the EU has contravened. If you can do that then there would already be a case for third party intervention/arbitration etc, because there will be a mechanism in the agreement for such a scenario. And you can guarantee that if this was indeed the case we'd be hearing about it non-stop from Leavers. Instead we get constant gaslighting about the NIP as if it's been imposed on us against our will, conveniently ignoring that parliament wasn't allowed time to properly scrutinise it, which in turn was clapped and cheered like performing seals by the Brexit supporting press.

And what is this so-called 'bad faith'. What does that even mean in the context of the NIP? Again, give me examples instead of conjuring up manufactured phoney wars about ham sandwiches. Try taking a ham sandwich through US customs or a CANZAC country and see how far you get.

If you want actual bad faith or as is often the case, downright lies, look no further than the British PM telling a group of NI business people that there would be no border down the Irish Sea. Where's your outrage at that?

The problem is and always has been your British exceptionalism, you won't accept the known consequences of what you voted for...

[Earl Aelfheah]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Remainers: "You cant change anything about the

> > NIP, its what was signed up to."

> >

> > Also Remainers: "We should change absolutely

> > everything and rejoin the single market"

>

>

> Not all Remainers. We?re not a homogenous bloc

> (and neither are Leavers) as I think you?d agree.

> There?s extremes and echo chambers on all sides of

> every debate.

I was joking about rejoining the EU to get round the problems with the NI protocol. It was in response to Keeno suggesting Ireland should leave the EU for the same reason. Both obviously ridiculous.

The truth is that we made a choice to leave the single market and the customs union and the consequence is checks on goods leaving and entering the EU. This means either a border on the Island of Ireland or in the Irish sea. We can probably reduce the amount of friction, but not remove it entirely. The Irish Sea solution does align NI more closely with the Republic and make it more distant from the rest of the UK in terms of trade. Over time this is going to increase tensions and calls for reunification.

It's one of the inevitable consequences of decisions made by the UK government. It was well discussed before those decisions where taken. There is no point blaming the EU

[Earl Aelfheah]

I also suspect that as soon as Johnson thinks it's politically safe to do so, he'll start pivoting his position subtly towards a closer relationship with the EU. As Sephiroth says it's in the country's interests and so as long as the countries interests don't run counter to his own personal, political interests, he'll change direction.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Of course, there'll be plenty of damage done in the meantime, but sadly, not to Johnson's career - the advancement of which driven quite a lot of this sorry circus.

[Sephiroth]

but it's all so depressing - here we all are again. After years of arguing to and fro of what is possibly going to happen , we are in the reality

And despite people like us warning about NI for years, for pointing out the problems with leaving SM and CU means you have to have a border you just have to decide where you want it, and despite the UK govt choosing and crowing about it's protocol deal, selling it as a glorious victory to the electorate, despite the govt not allowing it's own MPs to debate the merits or lack of the protocol - despite all of the observable reality of the last 6 months...

it still boils down to leavers saying it's the EU's fault

the phrase "you couldn't make it up" is just inadequate these days

No matter what the damage, they will blame everyone but themselves. And this will get worse, not better

As I've mentioned before, some leavers like Roland Smith are publicly eloquent about realising when and why they made a mistake - but too many just enjoy this back and forth arguing and blaming others. They aren't personally affected, they get to enjoy themselves arguing with people on the internet - s'all a game innit

[diable rouge]

Just been looking at Roland Smith's feed and there's this latest gem...

Dominic Raab - "We want a flexible, pragmatic approach to the Irish protocol, but the EU must be less purist, more pragmatic & more flexible in the implementation of it... the ball is very much in the EU's court."

The lack of self-awareness is off the scale. It's because of the purity and absolutism of Brextremists like Raab that we ended up with the NIP. There were several Brexit solutions available that would've got round the Irish border issue but they weren't deemed Brexity enough.

It's embarrassing seeing a Foreign Secretary talk about an international treaty his Gov wilfully negotiated, signed-up to and promoted as a great deal, wallow in blame-gaming and self-pity like this...

[TheCat]

Sephiroth, it seems to me that you're twisting the interpretation of history a bit here to give yourself a 'Ha...didnt we tell you so!' moment.

Many leavers (including a number on this forum) have said they thought the govt made a right pigs ear of the process of negotiating to leave (for reasons that don't bear unearthing again now). But regardless, the situation the govt found themselves in was Xmas eve last year, sign this deal, or go with no deal. Im not sure who all these people are you're referring to who trumpeted how amazing the NIP was??....I thought it was always regarded as an imperfect solution by people on all sides of the debate and was always seen as a banana skin within the context of the overall TCA. Would you have preferred NO DEAL instead?

If you're talking about the govt cheerleading the signing of the deal, including the NIP....well yeah....what else do you expect them to do?...."Hey electorate....we signed a deal...but dont get excited, its a bit sh!t"

So we have a section of the deal that people on all sides thought would probably cause problems (im sorry to burst you bubble, but i dont know if it was just 'people like you' who had such profound ability to foresee it!)...now actually causing problems.

Why is the Govt asking to renegotiate aspects of a deal that is causing problems for its citizens so outrageous to you? Im not sure if you're trying to argue that this issue invalidates brexit in its entirety, of if your point is that this govt is rubbish at things...assuming the latter, then you prob will find plenty of leavers who agree with you....

[Sephiroth]

I'm not twisting anything

"the situation the govt found themselves in was Xmas eve last year, sign this deal, or go with no deal."

those were not the only choices - previous choices were jettisoned by Johnson and other tories (even got rid of a prime minister because of it, remember). Another choice would be aligning to SM & CU.. choices choices

"what else do you expect them to do?...."Hey electorate....we signed a deal...but dont get excited, its a bit sh!t"

"

Again, this lot have been happy to do exactly that in the past - they just wouldn't allow anyone else to criticise it this time - because the prize was claiming "we got the brexit done" and everything else had to go under the bus for it. Honestly, I do expect government of a country to be honest with it's people on big decisions, and this govt is The Worst at that

This govt is rubbish, Brexit remains a bad idea and the two things are inextricably linked. We wouldn't have this awful govt were it not for brexit.

if it was concerned about a deal being awful for it's citizens, it wouldn't have pursued such an extreme brexit. Why does it bother me? Because they lied then, they lie now and many people buy it - at the expense of peace on these island, goodwill with other nations - brexit alone has imposed so much cost and inconvenience for other countries (amongst other things)

It bothers me because it's shameful behaviour for any country to behave this way - especially one that has prided itself on honour and tradition