Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[SpringTime]

The Centre is failing?

[Sephiroth]

No.  The centre is holding 

people viewing European polls and elections through a U.K., binary, FPTP system 

not that any of this has anything to do with Brexit 

[SpringTime]

I hope you're right!

[diable rouge]

11 hours ago, Sephiroth said:

not that any of this has anything to do with Brexit 

It's surprising though that they (France in particular) don't seem to have been paying attention to this side of the Channel and seen how a right wing populist Gov has trashed the UK. That if you vote for 'simple solutions to complex problems' like what Brexit promised, you end up with simpletons in charge. Who then proceed to drive out what remains of any competence/experience to  create an, ecosystem of incompetency for no other reason than they 'believe', promoting the likes of Lee Anderson to party Chair and Truss and Sunak to PM. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?!..

 

 

[Earl Aelfheah]

Absolutely incredible how many people are willing to support Farage after the damage he has already done to the UK. I can understand people perhaps being taken in by his phony promises and breezy insouciance at one point - simple answers to complex issues have always held sway with the hard of thinking. But he's spent years taking money from taxpayers as an absent MEP, as a rent-a-gob for anyone who will have him on a TV show and is now taking in 'donations' to Reform Ltd - a company for which he is Director and majority shareholder. It is quite clear that his ridiculous Brexit project has absolutely failed and that he is nothing but a divisive, attention seeking grifter. Are people really so keen to be treated as fools? Are Reform supporters suffering from some sort of Stockholm syndrome? It's embarassing.

[Sephiroth]

Some people just genuinely aren't very bright. And there will never be a shortage of people who will defend them: "Well I disagree fundamentally with Reform/Farage, but calling people thick just isn't on"

 

But calling people thick/wrong, when the circumstances present themselves, is the only correct course of action. And if you do intend to vote Reform, being called thick is the BEST thing you could be called - because the alternative is much much worse

[malumbu]

Wow that is so unhelpful and is part of the reason Brexit happened in the firsts place, a reaction to the intellectual elite.  It doesn't mean that Brexit wasn't a silly decision, nor is it any excuse for Farage's popular support.  But no way we (the pragmatists/those with a more evidence based view on politics) can win an argument if we speak like that.  What do you reckon Cat?

Ps I feel Farage has done more damage than just Brexit, fuelling populism, racism, Trump, the rise of the right and even Putin.

Edited June 19 by malumbu

[Earl Aelfheah]

I struggle with this. With Brexit, people were asked to give a simple answer to a complex question, surrounded by disinformation and dishonesty. So my instinct is to give people the benefit of the doubt. But to still be supporting Farage now? Reform Ltd are nakedly xenophobic and Farage has been completely exposed for the divisive, self serving grifter that he is. They deserve to be called out on it. To treat them as unfortunate pawns is to patronise them. If you're voting Reform, like Sephiroth says, you're either unwell, unpleasant, or incredibly stupid.

Edited June 19 by Earl Aelfheah

[Sephiroth]

Mal

 

spare us. That  wasn’t why Brexit happened. As any posh golf club bore in the Home Counties (definition of elite) would tell you 

 

you (correctly!) have been able to underline the folly and stupidity of corbyn’s ascent at the time.  Corbyn supporters in 2024 (and oh god there are so many) can shrilly go “see!!!! That’s why Corbyn won!”

it’s a totally bogus argument 

not as cringe as asking for the opinion of some gob living thousands of miles away for his opinion on uk life in 2024 tho

Earl. You make some very good points.  Is it unfair to judge people based on a complex question around a dishonest campaign?

 

for me, it’s not unfair.  People didn’t go “ooh this is a complex decision”

 

for a variety of competing reasons they all went with an arrogant gut.  For something that no government could deliver on.  It wasn’t a real question. It wasn’t “should we legalise assisted dying”. That’s complex too.  But is within the gift of the government 

 

but for balance I will allow more leeway for people voting in leave in 2016 than I would anyone holding similar position in 2024 

 

(cue the contrarians who cry “Me! I voted remain in 2016 but I would vote leave now “.  Reader you will find no bigger bore in the world)

[malumbu]

Still not helpful to call people stupid.  Racist, yes, xenophobic, yes.  It's like saying if you are scammed you are stupid.  People of all IQs get scammed, and people of all IQs voted to leave.  You can have highly intelligent and informed conversations with some Brexiters.  The attitude of many of us who voted remain that we know better than you didn't help.  Historians and social scientists will publish papers on the reasons we left.  The weak campaign by remain, the arrogance of Cameron, position of the Labour Leader, right wing press, Twitter and Facebook disaffected communities left behind, Farage, Gove/Johnson.  I reckon the latter swung it but even a stronger message when you take your holidays abroad, think of all the hassle may have prevented it.  Most of us assume that our vote in the GE won't make a difference and will protest vote as I will do.  Because Labour victory is so nailed on.  Some won't bother to vote.

But the week running up Remain should have been persuading those who were generally in favour in those two cohorts that there support was essential and their vote did matter, to turn up and not protest vote, as the result was not assured.  As of course it wasn't.

I'm not happier having typed this and have a few people I've not spoken to since 2016 and some difficult family relations.  And yes with  one relation  their vote to leave is because they are racist, not full on BNP but with a dislike of people of colour and Eastern Europeans, that thet themselves are a second generation immigrant makes it worse.

But I should have done more

Edited June 21 by malumbu

[Sephiroth]

Cheers Mal. Good post 

 

re stupidity.  Sort of depends on how it’s defined.  Take Steve in this article. 
 

(TLDR.  Brexit is causing me massive problems.  No politicians are talking about it.  No I don’t want to rejoin eu or single market. I just want my problems to go away by …. Pixies?”)
 

clearly in many ways Steve is far from stupid man.  And yet he seems to think there is some magical we all of his problems can me magicked away - so on that score, it would appear he has a blind spot so large, it is making him look very silly indeed.  is it helpful to call him silly or stupid? Not sure I care tbh.  But he is causing millions of us problems we can do without 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c511wdnyjq9o

 

[Sephiroth]

The glorious future we were promised is finally landing

 

”moar red tape! Moar charges! Moar criminals!  Taste the freedom”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/23/uk-says-importers-making-deliberate-errors-on-forms-to-avoid-brexit-border-charges

 

[malumbu]

Tory leader candidate says we must address the causes of the riots.  Hmm 14 years of Tory government, unnecessary austerity and the impact on our communities, a series of dreadful leaders, failed levelling up, the drift to the right and the demonisation of immigrants.  And the ginormous elephant in the room.  The promise of a better wealthier Britain if we left Europe.  Farage, Gove, Johnson, what do you say?  

[KidKruger]

Yes well said Malumbu. I think the slow-burn of demonisation over many years and who is responsible for that is fundamental to anywhere near understanding and working on what happened.

[Sephiroth]

meanwhile, the real daily problems caused by Brexit continue to mount up - with very little coverage or discussion

https://www.ft.com/content/b23081be-1808-4936-9727-3fd0ff56f98b

 

costs of setting up facility

facility not used

delays

people charged for checks which don't happen because it too longer than 2 hours so waved thru

 

absolute scenes

meanwhile we have architects of the Brexit deal like Lord Frost proclaiming "we can no longer call Britain a free country" from his column in the Telegraph this week - all that upheaval and cost to "take our country back" and yet here we are with it's proponents taking to the streets and writing columns like that

 

this was all Brexit could ever be - blank cheques which could never be cashed, houses built on sand all to appease people who could never be appeased

[Spartacus]

If you are going to post links behind pay walls, can you cut and copy the text into your post so that it can be read and put your post in context? 

[Sephiroth]

sorry - it didn't paywall for me. usually googling ft + the headline will give you one free FT read a day

But now when I go back it's behind paywall for me now too

Trade experts like David Heinz on social media tend to break it down into threads with commentary as well

 

many storys several months back in anticipation of checks coming in: eg

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/01/brexit-blooms-uk-and-eu-plant-firms-call-for-urgent-action-over-border-hold-ups

[diable rouge]

22 minutes ago, Spartacus said:

If you are going to post links behind pay walls, can you cut and copy the text into your post so that it can be read and put your post in context? 

There's usually a block of some kind to prevent that from happening, sometimes accompanied with a copyright warning...

Edited August 16 by diable rouge
Typo

[Sephiroth]

Looks like the paywall is down for that article from FT for now if you want to go and read it 

[Dulwich dweller]

15 hours ago, Spartacus said:

If you are going to post links behind pay walls, can you cut and copy the text into your post so that it can be read and put your post in context? 

Try this site. It usually works to bypass paywalls.

 

https://paywallreader.com/

[Sephiroth]

Don’t forget to fill out your forms next year either 

 

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/transport/article/britons-travelling-europe-visa-summer-2025-lr8xjm6m5

 

TLDR: Brits will need authorisation to enter eu from next year.  This isn’t some punishment - this scheme was drawn up and agree with uk when uk was a full member and so would have been subject to these checks 

Edited August 20 by Sephiroth

[malumbu]

well I would have preferred unfettered access but if it means we can get through passport control quicker and not have our passports filled with stamps every time we go to visit our continental neighbours that would be good.  Obviously no justification for leaving....

[Sephiroth]

aye Mal - but you would think the people who pushed for this wouldn’t have the gall to simultaneously complain about it

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13760813/amp/holidaymakers-Brussels-Brits-need-visa-waiver-travelling.html

 

 

Don’t forget to fill out your forms next year either 

 

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/transport/article/britons-travelling-europe-visa-summer-2025-lr8xjm6m5

[malumbu]

I liked the person on the radio news earlier, can't even buy a coffee for 7 Euros (well you can but that's not the point) so move on.  He also said I voted to leave, but think we should rejoin.

And the second one, oh the expense, the expense.

Not necessarily representative of UK society but not far off

 

Edited - Oh dear I looked at the comments, usually there are some lefty trolls that make this fun, but oh my word, straight into anti immigration and casual racism.  The Daily Mail really is the Daily Hate.

Edited August 21 by malumbu

[Spartacus]

Just to point out, there 7 euro comment was made by a separate person to the person who said they voted leave and wanted to rejoin. 

Guess the EU will now know if criminals or other undesirables who are on their banned try and travel when they apply for an entry visa. I am assuming we do the same?