Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Is this one of these things where whoever the next Prime Minister is the Brexiteers will say "ahh, but they didn't do what was necessary, so it wasn't Brexit that failed, it was the PM"? Like a "no true Scotsman/proper socialism has never been implemented anywhere so you can't say socialism failed" kind of argument?

[Sephiroth]

it's precisely that DKH

[Sephiroth]

People like Cat get to play a great-craic intellectual game where they rip up /ignore every international rule, claim it needs more believers/more time, and no matter how badly it goes wrong they will always always be able to blame poor implementation/external forces

There will be zero accountability - none

[TheCat]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is this one of these things where whoever the next

> Prime Minister is the Brexiteers will say "ahh,

> but they didn't do what was necessary, so it

> wasn't Brexit that failed, it was the PM"? Like a

> "no true Scotsman/proper socialism has never been

> implemented anywhere so you can't say socialism

> failed" kind of argument?

There's a difference between trying and failing, and not even trying at all though isnt there...?

All the critics of BJ and his government on here seem fine to lambast them for an inability to manage anything and everything, and cite their lack of positive progress in almost any area of policy...oh!..but not when its comes to Brexit, when its comes to that, its Brexit's fault, its not how sh!t this government is....

Fair enough if you think brexit is doomed to fail regardless...but to pretend that a proper attempt at progress isnt being impeded by a govrenment who's sh!t at imploementing any plan/agenda in any policy area is probably being a little willfully obtuse...

[Sephiroth]

it's absolutely bonkers how you divorce WHY we have an incompetent government from the fact that we do

We have an incompetent government because, having lied to get Brexit, having lied to get rid of May, having lied to "get brexit done" in a general election and having defenestrated anyone with even the slightest criticism of Brexit, all that's left is dross

And Brexit is the common thread - it's why we have had 3 prime ministers and 3 general elections in a 4 year period (with another change imminent). This is nor normal and it's not healthy

[TheCat]

The labour opposition is also sh-t....is that interwoven with the fact they they supported remain for years?...or are they just a sh-t opposition?

In anycase....the reason why they are the government is a separate issue, and doesn't really ameliorate their level of incompetence.

[Sephiroth]

Labour are in better shape than they were, but still not where I would want them to be. And they were shit partly because of Brexit and Corbyn yes

Are they SHIT now tho? Are they quantifiably as bad as this lot in power? Not in a million years

Vote them in and see

[diable rouge]

Exactly Seph, and not forgetting we're now on our 4th Brexit minister. It was all very predictable, we literally have a Vote Leave Gov.

...its Brexit's fault, its not how sh!t this government is....

Although IMO any form of Brexit was worse for the country than remaining, there were forms of Brexit that could've been better than what we've ended up with, regardless of a Gov's incompetence.

But no, that wasn't pure enough for No Dealers like Cat, who then have the gall to now just blame the Gov.

It's a common theme, it's never their fault..and never will be.

The reality is, it's a shit Brexit allied with a shit Gov...

[diable rouge]

Brexit broke party lines, there were plenty of Lexiteers as well as pro-Remain Tories...

[zerkalo]

There were indeed once pro-Remain Tories too. Like the new Brexit minister...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FG_kUlBWYAEgfRo?format=jpg&name=large

[Sephiroth]

and the previous one

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's a difference between trying and failing,

> and not even trying at all though isnt there...?

Not in practical terms, no: they both end up in failure. Brexit is a project, not a religion.

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Exactly Seph, and not forgetting we're now on our

> 4th Brexit minister. It was all very predictable,

> we literally have a Vote Leave Gov.

>

> ...its Brexit's fault, its not how sh!t this

> government is....

>

> Although IMO any form of Brexit was worse for the

> country than remaining, there were forms of Brexit

> that could've been better than what we've ended up

> with, regardless of a Gov's incompetence.

>

> But no, that wasn't pure enough for No Dealers

> like Cat, who then have the gall to now just blame

> the Gov.

> It's a common theme, it's never their fault..and

> never will be.

>

> The reality is, it's a shit Brexit allied with a

> shit Gov...

You've said a few times recently in fits of pique that I am a 'no dealer'....I don't know where you've got that from. That was never my position.

If you're going to insist on abusing me and my positions, then at least base it on things you haven't fabricated please.

[TheCat]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > There's a difference between trying and

> failing,

> > and not even trying at all though isnt

> there...?

>

> Not in practical terms, no: they both end up in

> failure. Brexit is a project, not a religion.

The comparisons with socialism are a false equivalence in my mind. Socialism has been tried...numerous times, and has failed. Brexit has never been tried...so if there's no commensurate commitment and delivery to at least the theory that people like Frost espouse...then we genuinely have no evidence that it wouldn't work do we...?

[diable rouge]

''You've said a few times recently in fits of pique that I am a 'no dealer'....I don't know where you've got that from. That was never my position.

If you're going to insist on abusing me and my positions, then at least base it on things you haven't fabricated please.''

Lighten up Cat, since when has calling someone a No Dealer been classed as abuse?

It hasn't gone unnoticed that you've been playing the ''Oh poor me, I'm the only reasoned debater on here'' card a lot recently. What's up, Cat had his fur rubbed up the wrong way?

You libertarian, free-thinking, critical thinkers are such wusses sometimes :)

Back to your No Dealer credentials, you weren't exactly jumping off the roof shouting what a terrible idea No Deel was either...

At the risk of raising the ire of some on here....given the situation we have found ourselves in, I am starting to question whether 'no deal' is actually all that bad?

FYI. None of the above was written in a 'fit of pique'. Try your self-projectionism on someone else...

[TheCat]

Wow, you must have searched very hard for that quote...where I ponder the question it would be that bad if we had no deal (at a time when it looked like we were going that way)...

In your searching, I guess you must missed the many times I said that I am not in favour of no deal...including this one, for example...

"For the record, I'm stating unequivocally that no deal is NOT what I have EVER advocated. And should it come to pass, it will hold quite a lot of turmoil"

So...just an apology for misrepresenting me as a 'no dealer' will be fine thanks....

As an aside on abuse/labelling....if you can comfortably refer to me as a 'Reasoned thinker my arse"...then I think 'Fit of pique' is probably a proportionate response:)

[diable rouge]

Awww, poor little puddy cat, how long have you been carrying that around rent free in your head?

I'll tell you what, I'll apologise when you apologise for Brexit.

Deal or No Deal?...

[TheCat]

Don't get all piquey DR...

Apology accepted.

[diable rouge]

In your dreams...rent free

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

> The comparisons with socialism are a false

> equivalence in my mind. Socialism has been

> tried...numerous times, and has failed. Brexit has

> never been tried...so if there's no commensurate

> commitment and delivery to at least the theory

> that people like Frost espouse...then we genuinely

> have no evidence that it wouldn't work do we...?

Not only has Brexit been tried, it's been done. The UK has left the EU. You can't say "Brexit isn't Brexit unless it's done in the way I want with the results I hoped for". That really is "no true Scotsman" logic.

Not loving how Brexit is being done just leaves you as the Trotsky to Johnson's Stalin, complaining about the direction in which the Russian revolution has been taken.

[Sephiroth]

Let's leave the elitist-brexit-is-a-gamble-worth-taking-think-about-it-yeah? discussion aside for a moment

Let's dip into leave-voting Wales, and hear what leave-voting farmers are saying

https://nation.cymru/news/brexit-too-hard-and-uk-govs-trade-deals-naive-says-welsh-farming-union-boss/

well... it's not good is it? I'd say the "give it 10 years" merchants are f***ed - but hey. The absolute JOY of a "give it 10 years" plan is... no-one will remember!!

Meanwhile real lives and jobs and industries are being screwed. If it was short term pain for long term gain you might try and mitigate it - but these people (and their kin in other industries) are being simply abandoned

Cat has no words for these people

Cat has many many many many words for his opponents on here - because that's his only battleground. He literally stands to lose nothing and lacks the empathy to care about those that do

[TheCat]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > > TheCat Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

>

> > The comparisons with socialism are a false

> > equivalence in my mind. Socialism has been

> > tried...numerous times, and has failed. Brexit

> has

> > never been tried...so if there's no

> commensurate

> > commitment and delivery to at least the theory

> > that people like Frost espouse...then we

> genuinely

> > have no evidence that it wouldn't work do

> we...?

>

> Not only has Brexit been tried, it's been done.

> The UK has left the EU. You can't say "Brexit

> isn't Brexit unless it's done in the way I want

> with the results I hoped for". That really is "no

> true Scotsman" logic.

>

> Not loving how Brexit is being done just leaves

> you as the Trotsky to Johnson's Stalin,

> complaining about the direction in which the

> Russian revolution has been taken.

Hmmmm....I sense you're just trying for a reaction here:)...not a bad effort to be fair.

Sure, brexit is 'done'. That's it. After all, there was a three word slogan and everything....we can stop talking about it now.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's leave the

> elitist-brexit-is-a-gamble-worth-taking-think-abou

> t-it-yeah? discussion aside for a moment

>

> Let's dip into leave-voting Wales, and hear what

> leave-voting farmers are saying

>

> https://nation.cymru/news/brexit-too-hard-and-uk-g

> ovs-trade-deals-naive-says-welsh-farming-union-bos

> s/

>

> well... it's not good is it? I'd say the "give it

> 10 years" merchants are f***ed - but hey. The

> absolute JOY of a "give it 10 years" plan is...

> no-one will remember!!

>

> Meanwhile real lives and jobs and industries are

> being screwed. If it was short term pain for long

> term gain you might try and mitigate it - but

> these people (and their kin in other industries)

> are being simply abandoned

>

> Cat has no words for these people

>

> Cat has many many many many words for his

> opponents on here - because that's his only

> battleground. He literally stands to lose nothing

> and lacks the empathy to care about those that do

It does bemuse me how much my very existence clearly irritates you.

[Sephiroth]

"It does bemuse me how much my very existence clearly irritates you."

Absolute scenes

an absolute chance for the shyster-in-chief to parlay his position into real world "look farming chaps - I know it;'s tricky - but sunlit uplands ahead!!" A chance to talk about victims, cost

and he makes it about him!

he always always always swerves the issues. he should replace Boris for all that we would notice

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> brexit is 'done'. That's it.

Was it any good, then?