Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[Sephiroth]

Have we even mentioned the atrocious WhatsApp messages between Baker/Dorries/Fysh and co last night? Absolute away with fairies, rats in a sack, nonsense

[diable rouge]

600...

[diable rouge]

Ooooh, what a coincidence...

Bluster is all they've got...

[Sephiroth]

from the twitter post of Dmitry Grozubinski

? If you can't get Brexit done to your satisfaction with an 80 seat majority purged of non-believers, Boris "Get Brexit Done" Johnson as PM, and Lord "I Will Fight EU" Frost as EU Negotiations Tzar, perhaps it is your expectations and not cruel fate or sabotage are the problem??

(citation added retrospectively by me)

[TheCat]

Surley if people want to read partisan, 'witty' tweets about brexit, they'll log into twitter...

There's really no need to constantly cut and paste them here (particularly with no added commentary of your own)

[diable rouge]

How's that low regulatory/low taxes thinking coming along Frosty?...

amazing that Brexiters like David Frost can?t see that they?d have a better chance of low taxes if they hadn?t just overseen a trade deal estimated to reduce tax revenues by ?40bn a year

[Sephiroth]

Because to even oppose a shit idea makes one ?partisan?

I mean the point stands. It doesn?t need commentary. It?s not even partisan

It?s objectively true

But instead of addressing any of that it?s just your usual obfuscation.

You are part of a vanishingly small group of oddballs (see also the mordaunt speech in the USA last week) who see Brexit as a supply side interruption and opportunity.

What you should do is gather as much grace as is possible, admit as much and apologise to the country

Maybe you have gathered as much grace as is possible already. Who knows

[ianr]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ? If you can't get Brexit done to your

> satisfaction with an 80 seat majority purged of

> non-believers, Boris "Get Brexit Done" Johnson as

> PM, and Lord "I Will Fight EU" Frost as EU

> Negotiations Tzar, perhaps it is your expectations

> and not cruel fate or sabotage are the problem??

That was actually written by Dmitry Grozubinski

and included in "Twitter Trends in Cambridge" https://www.trendsmap.com/local/gb/cambridge.

[Sephiroth]

Correct. I put it in quotes so make it obvious it wasn?t mine. But on a phone keyboard the chances of me typing his name were minimal.

[diable rouge]

To me it was pretty clear that Seph was quoting someone else, be it from here or another source.

I usually use italics for someone else's comments/quotes etc, and also in the third person e.g. It's not my Brexit! or for stressing a word.

After a while you get used to most people's posting idiosyncrasies, it's what catches out the multiple account holders...

[Sephiroth]

Also, anyone reading this thread still, will be fairly across the kinds of twitter trade/political commentators posting regularly on the subject

Chances of anyone passing off someone else?s tweet as their own are nil

Regardless, DG point stands

You got the majority

You removed the dissenters

You appointed the ideologies

And you achieved jack shit

And the reason for that is nothing to do with partisanship. And entirely down to objective reality. Cat is living in a tiny tiny bubble which has zero mandate for their Brexit. But still they plough on causing damage to peoples lives and livelihoods. It?s a disgrace and needs calling out

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, anyone reading this thread still, will be

> fairly across the kinds of twitter trade/political

> commentators posting regularly on the subject

>

> Chances of anyone passing off someone else?s tweet

> as their own are nil

>

In which case, why bother cutting and pasting them repeatedly?

[Sephiroth]

why bother? because they make succinct arguments in a small amount of words. I was on a phone and thought they were points well made that pro brexit people like yourself could refute (ha!)

Normally if I post a tweet from someone else I say "via so and so" - with the DG tweet, I was on a phone and decided against trying to type the name and just leave it in quotes. I think the previous tweet was a similar reasoning, albeit with a much easier spelling of the tweeter. Is this REALLY now about me trying to pass off other peoples tweets as my own? Because that is absolute Grade A shitehousery

you are still avoiding addressing any points made. Because of course you are

ok so - given the huge majority, given the "get brexit done", given the ferocity of "Frosty" and given the complete absence of any success - what would you do now?

You can blame Johnson and "the establishment" (embarrassing as that would be given some of the establishment lined up on your side)

so would a more capable government have done better? Who would that govt comprise of? And why (not how) but why would they have done better. You couldn't have a more PRO Brexit govt. You could have an even less capable one (indeed that might be incoming with Truss, IDS, Baker et al having more prominent roles)

You could have a MORE capable one - but that would mean keeping more capable, saner MPS, like Grieve etc

Uk has cut itself adrift - no-one cares about it (other than to dip in an skim off some of the easy fat). Hence Mordaunts humiliating appearance in USA last week

Either it continues down this ridiculous path (with all of the economic and reputation damage that entails) or it starts to reverse course

That's it. Your fantasy/fantasist supply-side Brexit simply has no traction or support

Does anyone on here share anything remotely like Cat's view? Because the country as a whole sure as hell doesn't. And trying to Trojan horse this nonsense on the back of Brexit is morally bankrupt

[TheCat]

It's pointless even having a discussion with someone who clearly wilfully ignores the real meanings of the words 'objective', 'partisan' or 'true'....but uses them as window dressing to support blinkered, facile commentary for which the only purpose appears to be a vehicle to proclaim 'Ha..the other side was wrong'....

I, in no way, have engaged with you over the years to try to get you to change your mind or prove remain 'wrong'. I haven't been trying to 'win an argument'...but perhaps just to engender some appreciation that there might be an alternative perspective which has some shred of validity..even one you stridently disagree with. But after all this time, that clearly remains (no pun intended) a step too far for you.

So, I'm apparently a member of a 'vanishingly small collection of oddballs'? I guess these oddballs and myself are people who see opportunity in some of those areas for regulatory divergence, to reshape a national economy (which will obviously take time) as mentioned in the CBI speech you find so awful? As an aside, I don't really know what you mean by a 'supply-side' brexit, but given the sophistication of some of your previous economic arguments, I'll do you a favour and won't dig too deep.

In anycase, I would flag to you and your ?sneering remainer? pals, that's it's worth remembering that the Brexit campaign was backed by former party leaders, former foreign secretaries and chancellors of the exchequer. It was backed by historians, economists and political theorists. It was backed by former chiefs of the general staff and heads of the security services. It was backed by heads of global businesses, some of the UK's leading entrepreneurs, heads of charities, and some of the largest fund managers. Name a field of endeavour and you'll find Brexit supporters. Obviously the Remain camp can field a similarly impressive list of supporters, I wouldn't deny that for an instant. And equally I would never be so blinkered as to merely dismiss them as ignorant europhiles. I'd argue that proponents of brexit warrant similar respect, even if you stridently disagree with their view on this issue. You have repeatedly made clear that you don't believe they are deserving of anything more than your derisory mockery.

Well.....I'd really love to know what overwhelming credentials you have? what your towering achievements are, that you can look down your nose at all these people and dismiss their considered judgement out of hand? Not even worthy of an 'agree to disagree' concession, as you've mentioned many time before.....?

Objective? I really don't think you know the meaning of the word

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just to wind up TheCat a bit more- I saw a tweet pointing out that ?the oven ready deal has just been defrosted?

[TheCat]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just to wind up TheCat a bit more- I saw a tweet

> pointing out that ?the oven ready deal has just

> been defrosted?

That doesn't wind me up all:)....that is actually quite amusing.

You've mistaken which poster actually takes themselves a little too seriously...:)

[Sephiroth]

Cat

Not wound up

Nope

Official

[Sephiroth]

""So, I'm apparently a member of a 'vanishingly small collection of oddballs'? "

Well yes - again, objectively so. Polls continue to show support for Brexit falling, as people who voted for their brexit (very different from yours) realise they are being screwed. But the oddballs are out there for everyone to see - the ones pushing for this weird, hard, pretend EU doesn't exist - the Bakers, The Frosts, the Mordaunts and yes the Trumps of this world - they are in a tiny minority. Everyone can see this

"t's worth remembering that the Brexit campaign was backed by former party leaders, former foreign secretaries and chancellors of the exchequer. It was backed by historians, economists and political theorists"

if you are going to highlight such luminaries, it would be dishonest if you didn't also point out that all of those categories had members against Brexit, and in fair greater numbers and with far more credibility than any of the ones you care to name? Economists? Minford and his cohorts? That simply isn't credible? Anyone you name in that list will be seen as on the crankish end of their spectrum, and in very small numbers

Am I wrong or factually incorrect with that statement?

But putting that aside - even if all too esteemed leaders were ALL campaigning for brexit - it wasn't this brexit. It wasn't YOUR brexit. It's a all a lie, a fantasy and a scam. You can have a brexit - but you won't be happy with it and neither will any other brexit faction

"Well.....I'd really love to know what overwhelming credentials you have? what your towering achievements are, that you can look down your nose at all these people and dismiss their considered judgement out of hand? Not even worthy of an 'agree to disagree' concession, as you've mentioned many time before.....? "

Who claimed overwhelming credentials? Just a voter like you - but one who recognises that if I listen to all of the professions you claim to be in support of brexit - they all come down on side of Remain, in big numbers. So I listen to them -because they know more than their kookish compadres

Promises made by Brexiteers are not in their gift to deliver - and that is not something we can "agree to disagree on"

[Sephiroth]

How do we think Truss is going to do?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/19/liz-truss-to-take-on-brexit-brief-after-lord-frost-resignation

[diable rouge]

My prediction is that's there's going to be a run on pork.

SELL! SELL! SELL!...

 

[Sephiroth]

"Liz - forget the EU. Brexit is done. Focus on Global Britain! Get great trade deals from around the world (even if it means those countries come out on top and we get some Tim tams)

Oh but while you're here Liz - Brexit.. yeah.. it's not done. never will be. So we've given you the brief to get a better deal with the EU as well as better deal for global Britain. Conflicting messages? No no no. Not at all. Sure America blew us out of the water with the NIP, and Frosty resigned but we believe in you. Just tell America NI is safe with us, do trade deals with conflicting countries and tell the EU go hang. No-one will know. We had someone leaking a week or two back but think we have that under control now"

quotes my own this time - not a quote from twitter. Rod for my own back there eh?

yes facile and sneery - but also... accurate in it's message

[Seabag]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?m sure Liz Truss is making herself ready for

> coming panto season / new role in Johnson?s

> government.

>

> Boris and the Brexit Beanstalk.

Oh dear, my prediction came true.

Hilarious!

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess these

> oddballs and myself are people who see opportunity

> in some of those areas for regulatory divergence,

> to reshape a national economy (which will

> obviously take time)

How long, do you reckon? Have any of those opportunities for regulatory divergence been realised yet? Or, as someone once phrased it, sunlit uplands: are we there yet?

[TheCat]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I guess these

> > oddballs and myself are people who see

> opportunity

> > in some of those areas for regulatory

> divergence,

> > to reshape a national economy (which will

> > obviously take time)

>

> Have any of those

> opportunities for regulatory divergence been

> realised yet?

Nope. Not really. That's sort of my whole point about the govt. Not enough is proactively being done by government. At best, the pace of any legislative progress appears glacial, and any regulatory change then takes time for its effects to be fully felt even once change is implemeted (this is true of almost any systemic regulatory change, and is not brexit specific)

How long does it take to reshape large sections of the economy? How long is a peice of string? I've said on here many times, judge the results after 10 years, but even with that said, economies are constantly evolving, so brexit impact will be a process on a continuum, not an A to B commute. In anycase...anyone (leave or remain) who ever expected any meaningful positive results after 11 months was always kidding themselves.

I've covered this ground many times previously on here, and while you might not personally have seen me address your questions more extensively, the regular 'hit squad' on this thread are about to descend and mock the idea of long term economic change ("You say 10 years, why not make it 100?!!...snicker, snicker, sneer, sneer")....because if change is not immediate and obvious to some people, then apparently it's "objectively wrong' to contemplate that change may occur....

[zerkalo]

TheCat claims that the results of Brexit should be judged after 10 years but that?s not what won the last elections or indeed the Brexit referendum, was it? The whole thing was sold as something oven-ready and that was the appeal to many people. It was indeed the vagueness and woolly terms of what this all meant (red, white and blue anyone?) that enabled the Leave campaign to win the referendum avoiding to spell out any specific details. I think this will also be the Brexiters undoing as one by one now jump ship rather than having to deal with reality (aka 'that's not the Brexit I voted for!')

David Frost said in his resignation letter that Brexit will enable a lightly regulated, lowtax, entrepreneurial economy (the dream of libertarians around the world) but I wonder if anyone told voters in the former red wall that this was the plan all along?