Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> An example of why we are linked to EU trade in

> ways we aren't quite so much with other side of

> the world

>

> Only now we have no say

>

> Of course, in Brexitland, we can trust UK govt to

> come up with an even better plan for these

> employees

>

> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/09/g

> ig-economy-workers-to-get-employee-rights-under-eu

> -proposals

What point are you actually trying to make?

The EU is intoducing legislation to make Gig workers recieve employment benfits and be recognised as employees...what has that got to do with 'Eu Trade', or with 'having no say'...no say in what exactly?

The only point of relevance in the article I can see as it relates to the UK, is that there may be additional pressure on the UK from various lobby groups to adopt similar measures (depsite a UK court declaring Uber workers can be recognised as empoyees 5 years ago)...but doesnt seem to have much to do with your comments to me.

[Sephiroth]

maybe I shouldn't have used the exact phrase "EU trade"

you say - "there may be additional pressure on UK from different lobby groups" - UK employees might well question promises made by UK govt if they are worse off than EU counterparts. That is significant no?

Either Uk complies/follows EU rules (rules they had no say in drawing up)

or they don't and break promises to increase workers wages/security for UK workers - so where is the benefit?

[diable rouge]

Are you feeling ok Daily Express?... https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1534017/UK-trade-data-post-Brexit-GDP-EU-evg

[diable rouge]

This rings a bell - ''Not My Brexit!''...https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2021/12/not-my-brexit.html

[JohnL]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Are you feeling ok Daily Express?...

> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1534017/UK-trade

> -data-post-Brexit-GDP-EU-evg

That must have been sneaked into the Express by a Mirror writer

[Sephiroth]

A bit of stern talking is what's required to whip the ungrateful US and EU into shape.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59597310

But she already knows the reality

"When asked why further talks with the US weren't happening before 1 January, Ms Trevelyan said the US chose to have a discussion with the EU first because it was a larger trading partner."

But yes a govt composed entirely of sub-par nonentities (waves at Gisela Stuart in her new appointment yesterday) spectacularly ill suited to wielding any power (and who only HAVE power because of a delusional devotion to Brexit) are somehow going to, with the benefit of decades, usher in a glorious Brexit future

"Ah but we agree these politicians are shit, but the idea is sound and with a new broom, you'll see the benefits. Give it years, decades even. Yes many of us may be dead but..." etc etc

Communism or Brexit redux

[j.a.]

Oh look.

The UK has dropped its red line over the ECJ. Odd, Frost was somewhat insistent about that.

A u-turn from this government? Perish the thought.

Sounds suspiciously like the US has applied some pressure behind the scenes.

Or maybe not.

Either way, it?ll move things forward.

[Sephiroth]

The less brexit UK does, the less pain caused

Still. So far in the credit column we have? um?

Large part of the public still against reversing Brexit - wonder how long that will survive the black hole implosion that will be the demise of this govt

Labour very much ?not rocking the boat?. But do any leavers think they will be more Brexity, regardless of what they say now?

[Sephiroth]

Let?s check in on this bonkers Brexit bonanza

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-trade-revolution

It?s almost impossible to read without cringing.

To think this is how leavers see themselves when the reset of the world are all too aware of how exposed they are

Still. 10, 20, 50 years from now, I?m sure the descendants of Rees-Mogg, Mordaunt and co will have proven Cat right and me wrong. And there won?t have been any casualties to speak of along the way. Some yes. Goes without saying. But not many in the scheme of things

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let?s check in on this bonkers Brexit bonanza

>

> https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-trade-r

> evolution

>

> It?s almost impossible to read without cringing.

>

>

> To think this is how leavers see themselves when

> the reset of the world are all too aware of how

> exposed they are

>

> Still. 10, 20, 50 years from now, I?m sure the

> descendants of Rees-Mogg, Mordaunt and co will

> have proven Cat right and me wrong. And there

> won?t have been any casualties to speak of along

> the way. Some yes. Goes without saying. But not

> many in the scheme of things

I can't read all the way down that speech, it's unbearable. These people really do need to get over their fantasy 'nation standing alone' WWII complex.

[Sephiroth]

?It?s been a couple of years. Shall we Brexit this bit now??

?Christ no. Are you mad????

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/15/uk-delays-brexit-checks-on-goods-entering-from-ireland?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[j.a.]

So who?s going to replace Frost?

Will Johnson go for pragmatism and try to shove Gove in there (doubt he?ll want it), or is he gonna double down and try to find someone even more crass and unqualified? To go from David Davis, to Olly Robbins, to Frost?where do you go from there?

Genuinely intrigued to see who next carries the can for this.

[TheCat]

In all seriousness, the resignation of Frost genuinely concerns me with respect to the potential for the opportunities presented by brexit (as I see them) to be seized upon. And it now means the departure of BJ become more of an urgent necessity in my book...

While the headlines are that he quit becuase of covid plans, and some might think that hes BJ's scapegoat for NI issues....I tend to think that the key reason is that he has not been able to accelerate progress on a legislative agenda that actually has the potential to create an environment in which Brexit can be/will be successful. And if I am right about that, then that is indeed a concern for everyone....

Frost gave what I thought was a great speech to the CBI a month or so ago...(I'd encourage anyone to find the entire transcript) and the except below suggests his personal alignment with what I think the government's approach should be. But, reading between the lines, I also sense frustration at the lack of progress under BJ (Something not limited to brexit related policy of course)....

If I'm right (that frost is hitting a brick wall at cabinet) then this is just another area where this government is just lurching around with no clear objective or directives from the top...and an example of why I have been concerned with such a sh-te government implementing brexit...not necessarily with brexit as a concept itself...

Frost speech excerpt....

"My job is to drive change within government, to push policy in the right direction and to overcome the forces of entropy, of laziness, of vested interest.

What Brexit means for the future is dependent on whether we can seize these opportunities. Whether we can liberalise, free up, create competition on our own market, create the conditions for innovation and productivity growth.

We can?t carry on as we were before and if after Brexit all we do is import the European social model we will not succeed.

We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the European Union from Britain with Brexit, only to import that European model after all this time.

So we need to reform fast, and those reforms are going to involve doing things differently from the EU. If we stick to EU models, but behind our own tariff wall and with a smaller market, we obviously won?t succeed.

That is why I talk so often about divergence ? not for the sake of it, but because it is a national necessity.

This project has already begun ? though I would be the first to admit there is a lot more to do.

We are liberalising the growth areas of the future to open them up to greater innovation ? in data reform, gene editing, transport, medical licensing and devices, Artificial Intelligence, and more

We are making changes to the nuts and bolts of many of the core frameworks underpinning the economy to make them less bureaucratic and more dynamic than the EU regimes we have now left ? state aid and procurement being prime examples.

We are phasing in our new domestic agriculture regime, while our immigration system has been reformed to give us much greater control over who comes into the UK and facilitate the shift to a high-wage, high-skill economy."

[Sephiroth]

from a twitter post by @RavinAnenden

? Lord Frost's resignation exemplifies a pattern among all the loud sovereignty purists: upon realising that there are difficult trade-offs inherent in their own choices, they pack their bags and leave, blaming others for the self-inflicted mess.?

[j.a.]

?If I'm right (that frost is hitting a brick wall at cabinet) then this is just another area where this government is just lurching around with no clear objective or directives from the top...and an example of why I have been concerned with such a sh-te government implementing brexit...not necessarily with brexit as a concept itself...?

And herein lies one the core reasons why, in the end, I couldn?t vote Leave.

No one - nobody at all - had any idea how to *actually implement it*. As has been mentioned ad neaseum, there is no single, coherent version of Brexit which commands majority support across the Leave vote. As such any agreement with the EU will piss off someone, possibly many people.

This is the unfortunate, inevitable, inescapable result of voting Leave without a clearly understood and agreed view on the matter.

Them of course there is the small matter of electing such a lying, conniving, self-serving charlatan as Johnson to enact it, a man so divorced from any understanding of leadership and honesty as to put their nation on a crash course with disaster when something so important (to put it mildly) as Brexit is at stake.

I still believe that the mistakes were made in the early days of Brexit, such that they could not later be corrected, but even so this is now becoming an utter shit show. To be clear, I personally take no pleasure in this, I would?ve preferred to eat humble pie and seen the Leave camp be able to make good on everything they promised. But?well, they?re still arguing with themselves.

[wordsworth]

...honey,pass the tissues luv...

[Seabag]

I?m sure Liz Truss is making herself ready for coming panto season / new role in Johnson?s government.

Boris and the Brexit Beanstalk.

[Sephiroth]

That cbi speech is just awful isn?t it?

Pie in the sky libertarian daydreaming. Just as awful as the worst corbyn wet dream

But even if you think it?s the bees knees, it?s hard to argue it?s what the ?never voted before, voted labour all my life but voted to get Brexit done and believe Johnson?s levelling up ? voters in Rotherham are four-square behind

[j.a.]

wordsworth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ...honey,pass the tissues luv...

Why, have you run out of socks?

[TheCat]

j.a. Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ?If I'm right (that frost is hitting a brick wall

> at cabinet) then this is just another area where

> this government is just lurching around with no

> clear objective or directives from the top...and

> an example of why I have been concerned with such

> a sh-te government implementing brexit...not

> necessarily with brexit as a concept itself...?

>

> And herein lies one the core reasons why, in the

> end, I couldn?t vote Leave.

>

> No one - nobody at all - had any idea how to

> *actually implement it*. As has been mentioned ad

> neaseum, there is no single, coherent version of

> Brexit which commands majority support across the

> Leave vote. As such any agreement with the EU will

> piss off someone, possibly many people.

>

> This is the unfortunate, inevitable, inescapable

> result of voting Leave without a clearly

> understood and agreed view on the matter.

That's an absolutley fair position, and a reasonable crIticsm of a vote to leave. For my own part, I had (and still) hoped that a reasonable (not even spectacular) government would be alive to the various opportunities/potential, and progressively chart an appropriate course (just as they would have done had we remained..albeit with less relative uncertainty). This position has been mocked on here, but while others might not choose that approach themselves, I don't think it's wildly unreasonable to rely on a government to navigate complicated economic and legislative terrain in the nation's best interest...it's sort of what people expect governments to do. Unfort, we have probably one of the more useless governments in living memory.

>

> Them of course there is the small matter of

> electing such a lying, conniving, self-serving

> charlatan as Johnson to enact it, a man so

> divorced from any understanding of leadership and

> honesty as to put their nation on a crash course

> with disaster when something so important (to put

> it mildly) as Brexit is at stake.

>

Don't disagree with this, and never have.

> I still believe that the mistakes were made in the

> early days of Brexit, such that they could not

> later be corrected, but even so this is now

> becoming an utter shit show. To be clear, I

> personally take no pleasure in this, I would?ve

> preferred to eat humble pie and seen the Leave

> camp be able to make good on everything they

> promised. But?well, they?re still arguing with

> themselves.

Def mistakes made, and feet being dragged. I don't think anything is as yet 'unfixable'. But it can't be fixed with Boris in charge, he just doesn't have it in him. And I think frost has clearly realised this...no matter your opinion of frost and his views, he's no political fool...and the timing of his resignation (and it's 'leaking') is clearly designed to damage Boris's last remaining area of support from his faithful (I.e. his brexit credentials). I think the resignation is a clear message to MP's to get their letters into the 1922 committee...

As an aside, nice to see a point made on this thread that doesn't rely on pithy one liners, excessive hyperbole or mocking dismissal/derision of others.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That cbi speech is just awful isn?t it?

>

> Pie in the sky libertarian daydreaming. Just as

> awful as the worst corbyn wet dream

>

> But even if you think it?s the bees knees, it?s

> hard to argue it?s what the ?never voted before,

> voted labour all my life but voted to get Brexit

> done and believe Johnson?s levelling up ? voters

> in Rotherham are four-square behind

Well...obviously a very fundamental misalignment of respective perspectives...

As another aside, agreat example of those pithy one liners and mocking dismissal that passes for debate around these parts...

[Sephiroth]

5 years of this shit

All that is left is deserved mockery. Sooner we put this behind us we can get back to normality

Thanks for the input tho

[diable rouge]

All together now...

''That's not my Brexit!''

That Frost is considered in some Brexit quarters as a political heavyweight shows what an intellectual vacuum still exists at the heart of Brexit.

Frost, the UK's chief negotiator of the 'oven ready deal', lauding what a fantastic deal it was, only to then, a few months later, castigate it as a terrible deal. I guess he needed that time to Google what he'd actually signed up to...

[Sephiroth]

"Well...obviously a very fundamental misalignment of respective perspectives... "

Just to be clear - is this a reference to the differences between, say, you and me?

Or is it a reference to the red-wall voters vs the like so you and Steve Baker?

[diable rouge]

Lord Frost reportedly furious with the terms of his resignation after negotiating them himself....:)