Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Did all remainers have the exact same view of

> what the country and EU relationship would look

> like in 5 years, had we of remained? "

>

> We had been members for decades and were

> prospering - remaining was a known quantity.

>

> 27 countries continue to do it. It's a facile

> argument

>

> No other country in the word is putting up

> barriers with it's closest neighbours and

> inflicting financial damage on itself

Okay, now there's an interesting comparison to the Scottish independence referendum. The UK was a known quantity and remaining seemed like the status quo. Then the UK - really England mostly - went and bloody voted to leave the EU! Had voters known that the "known quantity" of remaining would involve leaving the EU, the result certainly would have gone the other way and Scotland would be independent, within the EU right now.

Amusingly (not amusingly) it now looks like in the next five years Scotland will retaliate against Brexit by...putting up borders with its closest neighbour and inflicting even greater financial damage than Brexit did! 🤦🏼‍♂️

[diable rouge]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Amusingly (not amusingly) it now looks like in the next five years Scotland will retaliate against Brexit by...putting up borders with its closest neighbour and inflicting even greater financial damage than Brexit did!

And Indy supporters will just dismiss it as ''teething problems''...

[Sephiroth]

one difference about Scottish Indy ref is it will be deliberately putting a border with England BUT to gain access to the wider market and freedom of movement of the EU - it wouldn't be to "be a sovrin nation!"

So I don't see them as quite the same thing

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry Cat - that is just a word salad without any

> real meaning. And exposes you as a little more

> extreme than even I had figured

I guess it took you 23 minutes to find meaning in my 'word salad' then:)

I hardly think its 'extreme' to think that the world is constantly changing/evolving....

DogKenell's scottish example is a great example of exactly what I mean.

[Sephiroth]

? hardly think its 'extreme' to think that the world is constantly changing/evolving....?

Oh that?s not extreme. Of course not. It?s what decisions you make based on that knowledge that leads to extremes

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> one difference about Scottish Indy ref is it will

> be deliberately putting a border with England BUT

> to gain access to the wider market and freedom of

> movement of the EU - it wouldn't be to "be a

> sovrin nation!"

>

> So I don't see them as quite the same thing

There are just as many loopy people in Scotland as in England. They too are obsessed with sovereignty and the totally bonkers idea that Scotland is an English colony, England is an imperial power etc.

Equally, access to the European Market is great if you sell intangible goods over the Internet. But if you actually want to buy potatoes, sand, clothes, whatever...you'd be mad to swap England for Ireland and a cluster of countries from which you are separated by hundreds of miles of sea. There's no getting over the fact that England is the only country with which Scotland has a land border. It would be just as mad as forcing Northern Ireland to swap a single Irish Market for trade with GB...and not even the Tories wanted that.

https://grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com/2021/10/06/scotland-is-a-colony/

[Sephiroth]

I don't think independence from England is a direct corollary with the kind of sovereignty espoused by Brexiteers

(Not that I doubt the existence of the kind of nationalist you mention)

I don't know many Scottish people who want BOTH independence from England AND don't want to join the EU. And they would look at Ireland as a example of a small nation trading, existing and functioning with out English rule

Not sure I get last point - "as mad as forcing Northern Ireland to swap a single Irish Market for trade with GB". Cross border trade in Ireland has increased massively but it's not a single Irish Market - it's a Market of 27 countries no? Or if you meant the opposite, Tories did want that - it's what they voted for - until they said they didn't want that

Could be me misunderstanding what you mean tho so I don't want to labour the point

[Sephiroth]

"s many loopy people in Scotland as in England."

speaking of - no surprise to see the MPS who voted against tiniest Covid measures last night were Brexiteers to a molecule. It's all about tilting at windmills for these people

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>Tories did want that -

> it's what they voted for - until they said they

> didn't want that

>

Yes, exactly. Given the choice between "sovereignty" and reliance on trading partners across the sea OR having access to the market immediately across the land border to the south, even the Tories chose the latter.

An independent Scotland would be mad to exchange frictionless access to the English market for frictionless access to the EU...but see previous comment about as many loopy people there as here...

[Sephiroth]

This is decentish on the nub of the problems - uk knows it has to play nice, but that doesn't play well with hardcore base or media so around and around we go

https://www.ft.com/content/b0db89a2-edf1-47ef-b853-b315ab183756

[Sephiroth]

How is this a ?Brexit win? ????

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1531141/brexit-news-uk-gritter-driver-shortage-british-engineering/amp

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Ehh - that's just the normal tenuous link you need to get your press release into the paper. Econ's PR team has done well.

The good news is there's never been a better time to buy your own Union Jack-emblazoned gritter truck and run your own sovereign gritting company!

https://rickardstrucks.co.uk/econ-gritter/

[Sephiroth]

But how DESPERATE does anyone, anyone have to be, to even try and claim this as a Brexit win. It?s not just media PR

[TheCat]

A very poorly worded and constructed article to be sure...

But if you want you a genuine Brexit angle..here it is...this is a great example of an industry being forced to modernise/invest in technology to improve productivity, becuase there is no longer access to limitless cheap labour to drive the old gritters.

This is a real world example of the basic economic principles which I've mentioned on here before (I.e. moving towards a higher productivity economy drives economic growth), which some posters have dismissed as 'all fine in theory, but not how the real world works'.....guess again guys.....

Two final points to pre-empt expected responses:

1) this increase in productivity is NOT a feature of the OBR forecasts for a long term GDP 4 percent below what they believe it would be in a remain scenario. So this entire thematic is potential upside to these long range forecasts, and the absence of this (among other things) is one reason why many economists question the OBR's methodology.

2) You may say that nothing was stopping these industries from doing this before, and it is true that there was no EU regulation stopping investment. But what did stop them was rationale economics/capitalism...why invest in new technology when you can hire a low paid HGV driver to drive the old gritter you already own...?

[Sephiroth]

I haven?t had to bandage myself or find a way of sterilising a wound in my 53 years on this planet

But then a few years ago I took a knife to my right arm and sliced it clean through

Now it wasn?t easy. And I?m not quite back to where I was

But I learned a lot about medical procedure. Would I have done that if I hadn?t sliced my arm like that? No!!

So who?s winning now, eh?

[Sephiroth]

Now, I know you are going to say ?what a facile argument?

But it isn?t

Expending that much energy and time just to achieve same goal is inefficiency.

And it doesn?t in any way counter the actual genuine losses from the act of self harm

And the self congratulation doesn?t help either.

It?s all net loss

[TheCat]

I'm not sure if your bizarre 'slicing you own arm' analysis is quite enough to refute basic, almost universally accepted economic theory - that you would find in pretty much any Economis 101 textbook.

But keep on fighting the good fight...

PS: I particularly like the line mocking my 'self-congratulation'...this coming from Mr 'I've been warning about X, Y and Z for years'....

[Sephiroth]

Enjoy 2022

[Sephiroth]

?

PS: I particularly like the line mocking my 'self-congratulation'...this coming from Mr 'I've been warning about X, Y and Z for years'....?

I?m just me. And like many others I?ve been warning about stuff that has actually happened.

Farming. Screwed

Fishing. Screwed

Haulage. Screwed

Employers. Screwed

Northern Ireland peace? Precarious

Uk international reputation. Screwed

Eu nationals (not that you care) : precarious

These things have happened.

And it?s about to get worse as even uk starts to apply border rules from January

So it?s not self congratulation. It?s just regret at all the damage done

But you? A never ending supply of ?nothing to see here! ? backslapping shite

Never once a hint of ?ok this isn?t working like I hoped it would ?

You hint that Johnson isn?t doing enough and point out crap like GDPR. as if the world is going to adopt GDPR and wherever uk comes up with alone.

I know no one else on here cares right now. Doesn?t make it any less important

[TheCat]

I think I'll call it a night, as there's really not much rational in the rant above to actually respond to.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> But if you want you a genuine Brexit angle..here

> it is...this is a great example of an industry

> being forced to modernise/invest in technology to

> improve productivity, becuase there is no longer

> access to limitless cheap labour to drive the old

> gritters.

You and I don't know what actually drove this particular company's investment at all. It certainly happened after Brexit (and more accurately the Brexit-COVID combination that drove up driver wages), but beware of the pirates/global warming fallacy. It is generally true that high labour costs drive investment in labour-saving technology, sure. As it happens, from Monday next week I myself will be bringing onstream a bot to automatically post tedious Brexit-related content on my behalf...

[malumbu]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How is this a ?Brexit win? ????

>

> https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1531141/brexit-n

> ews-uk-gritter-driver-shortage-british-engineering

> /amp

Getting a bit desparate if you are quoting the Daily Express. I just like looking at their headlines when I am in Lidl, as they clearly are on another universe "hooray hooray, the PM is great, we are wonderful, etc etc". But even they are not towing this line this evening, even the Express cannot champion Johnson at present. Yesterday's headline was about how we would benefit zillions for being outside of the EU and cutting red tape. Can't find it on line but this one from few weeks ago is similar: https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1528859/brexit-news-free-trade-economy-red-tape-eu-Nile-Gardiner

Anyway what is good about the Daily Express? It isn't the Daily Mail. And nobody reads it in any case.

[Sephiroth]

Dunno about no-one reading it - pop into any newsagent in some of the more down at heel coast Sussex towns and I see plenty of copies sold

I suspect it sells far more than Graun nationally

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Daily circulation of 296,000. Twice as many as Guardian and FT, about a quarter of the Daily Mail. Obviously circulation is not the same as sales but people are reading it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_the_United_Kingdom_by_circulation

[Sephiroth]

An example of why we are linked to EU trade in ways we aren't quite so much with other side of the world

Only now we have no say

Of course, in Brexitland, we can trust UK govt to come up with an even better plan for these employees

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/09/gig-economy-workers-to-get-employee-rights-under-eu-proposals