Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[TheCat]

''There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside''

Where is this quote from?

[JohnL]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ''There will be no downside to Brexit, only a

> considerable upside''

>

> Where is this quote from?

David "Disappearing" Davis

[TheCat]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ''There will be no downside to Brexit, only a

> > considerable upside''

> >

> > Where is this quote from?

>

> David "Disappearing" Davis

Ha. Well a a very foolish comment. And certainly not one I'd advocate.

My bias is to think that there surely can't be that many people who are so gullible as to take an absolutist comment like from a politician as a given.

To those people, I could say that I got an email the other day from a Nigerian Prince who has an interesting business proposition for them....

Although to be fair, it's no less ridiculous than some remain supporter constantly claiming that 'there is not one single benefit to brexit, not one'....

[JohnL]

Just saw on the news we are now being warned of food shortages on the shelves because the COVID app has been pinging everyone working in the food chain and now they're isolating (nothing to do with the B word)

Poor Sajid Javid seems to have come down with Covid too - just after meeting the PM. The PM went on to meet with the GB Rugby League squad (not me saying that but Sky News).

[Sephiroth]

Not only does Cat ignore the whole point about no credible economists supporting brexit, he then professes to be ignorant of DD's

"''There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside''

Where is this quote from?"

How can anyone get through last 5 years and not be aware of this and other promises (like Dan Hannan's "no-one is saying we will be outside Single Market or Customs Union")

Cat's vacuous, Cummings-lite "we intelligentsia can see a bright future beyond the ken of mere mortals" schtick wouldn't muster 5% of a Brexit vote - it needed 10s of millions of people believing guff form Davis and Hannan and (still!) Johnson et al

The whole thing was and remains a fatal house built on sand

Never mind Cat's (slight, qualified, but nonetheless real) steps backward on the "taking the knee debate" - should he and I both make it another couple of decades in this life, he will never ever ever ever have been more wrong about any single thing ever

and as before when "agree to disagree" nonsense has been proposed, I reject it. Because there is no disagreeing with the reality. This is too important to too many lives and livelihoods

It was a lie, remains a lie and will be a lie for evermore - and if he (and others) can't see the poison and lies that sustain the whole thing (whilst openly ignorant of the lies that led us here), there can be no "agree to disagree".

[Sephiroth]

"Ha. Well a a very foolish comment. And certainly not one I'd advocate. "

a foolish comment that millions believed (they still do)

but to be clear, this is a leaver saying millions didn't know what they voted for, not a remainer

[keano77]

Sephiroth have you thought about therapy?

?Hello, my name?s Sephiroth and I was a remainder on the wrong side of history?

(Red Devil) ?Hi Sephiroth?

[Sephiroth]

Keano - are you the person who just a few days ago was asking what the phrase meant? Who has educated you? Did they charge? Seek a refund

[keano77]

I still think it?s a silly phrase. Totally subjective depending on one?s point of view or the prevailing trends.

[Sephiroth]

No one forced you to use the silly phrase sweetie - you just? did

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not only does Cat ignore the whole point about no

> credible economists supporting brexit, he then

> professes to be ignorant of DD's

>

> "''There will be no downside to Brexit, only a

> considerable upside''

>

> Where is this quote from?"

>

> How can anyone get through last 5 years and not be

> aware of this and other promises (like Dan

> Hannan's "no-one is saying we will be outside

> Single Market or Customs Union")

>

> Cat's vacuous, Cummings-lite "we intelligentsia

> can see a bright future beyond the ken of mere

> mortals" schtick wouldn't muster 5% of a Brexit

> vote - it needed 10s of millions of people

> believing guff form Davis and Hannan and (still!)

> Johnson et al

>

> The whole thing was and remains a fatal house

> built on sand

>

> Never mind Cat's (slight, qualified, but

> nonetheless real) steps backward on the "taking

> the knee debate" - should he and I both make it

> another couple of decades in this life, he will

> never ever ever ever have been more wrong about

> any single thing ever

>

> and as before when "agree to disagree" nonsense

> has been proposed, I reject it. Because there is

> no disagreeing with the reality. This is too

> important to too many lives and livelihoods

>

> It was a lie, remains a lie and will be a lie for

> evermore - and if he (and others) can't see the

> poison and lies that sustain the whole thing

> (whilst openly ignorant of the lies that led us

> here), there can be no "agree to disagree".

Blimey. And here I was thought we were getting on.

I don't have much to say to this slightly unhinged rant. It's not really worth it I'm afraid.

[JohnL]

Here's another phrase - not sure if Aussies really say this or it's just used to send Katie home.

"The deputy prime minister, Barnaby Joyce, has also suggested Hopkins be deported, saying anyone who flouts Australian law should ?pack your bongo and get out of the country?.

[keano77]

True, it just seemed the trendy thing to do given its wide usage on the forum recently

[Sephiroth]

It?s strong and heartfelt.

I object to unhinged -

Comparing pro and anti Brexit economists as equal - that?s unhinged

What have I said that?s unhinged?

[TheCat]

Perhaps unhinged was a touch strong.

But I think best to just leave it, regardless.

[Seabag]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seabag Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > TheCat Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > I dont really get the outrage, like this is a

> > > surprise ?....leaving the EU meant that it

> > would

> > > be harder for EU workers to come here. That

> is

> > onel

> > > thing we can surely agree that everyone, no

> > matter

> > > they voted, we're fully aware of pre-vote.

> > >

> > > If you question is how can this possibly have

> a

> > > positive outcome. Well there are a number of

> > > possibilities:

> > >

> > > 1) fruit picking wages and condition improve,

> > and

> > > more locals are incentivsed to pick fruit.

> The

> > > corrolorray being that UK fruit and veg

> becomes

> > > more expensive of course, but that is the

> price

> > > paid for upwards wage pressure.

> > > 2) farmers will be encouraged to investing in

> > > other forms of productivity improvements,

> thus

> > > reducing the requirement for hordes of low

> paid

> > > workers over time. Improving productivity

> makes

> > > for a strong economy as a general rule.

> > > 3) a sensible govt (which we don't have)

> would

> > > issue enough visas to ensure the indusrty

> does

> > not

> > > suffer excessively in the short term, but

> still

> > at

> > > level below what it might have been

> pre-brexit,

> > so

> > > as to encourage points 1 and 2 above.

> >

> > Oh lorks, seriously. Have you ever done manual

> > labour, of this nature?

> >

> > It?s back breaking , weather dependent and

> > financially soul destroying. Hence why foreign

> > ?skills? are bought in to do it, and they?re

> the

> > very best at it, because that?s the only way to

> > make it work out and pay.

> >

> > Sometime ago a Cambridge farmer was on the

> radio,

> > and basically even if you took every unemployed

> > person in the county, including the

> > fat/feeble/down right useless, you?d still not

> > fill all the seasonal jobs hneeded to pick

> > everything.

> >

> > And the very same voters who voted whatever

> aren?t

> > prepared to pay for a ?picked by a local

> person?

> > courgette or tomato, because left to their own

> > devices, they don?t give a fck.

>

>

>

>

> I'm not quite sure that the collection of

> anecdotes above is how we should think about

> national economic policy. It strikes me that the

> vocal remainers tend to struggle to see the

> potential for transformation beyond the immediate

> negative impacts. Brexit will undoubtedly

> transform the British economy, and any transition

> will have losers/challenges at various points in

> time. So yes, if the farmer wants to continue his

> or her business in the exact same way as before

> when there was abundant cheap labour, then that

> failure to adapt will mean he or she probably goes

> out of business. But overall, industries adapt and

> improve - this would be the case with or without

> brexit - but brexit has certainly accelerated some

> aspects of economic transition.

>

> I personally think that if the country breaks its

> reliance on a low skilled, low wage labour force

> (which won't be easy) then that will ultimately be

> a good thing overall.

>

> A reference for anyone not familiar with labour

> productivity and impact on the economy....

>

> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5887/economics/

> uk-labour-productivity

>

>

> As an aside...nice bit of passive xenophobia with

> this...

>

> It?s back breaking , weather dependent and

> > financially soul destroying. Hence why foreign

> > ?skills? are bought in to do it, and they?re

> the

> > very best at it, because that?s the only way to

> > make it work out and pay.

>

> So what you're saying is it's hard, and we don't

> pay much for it...so just let the foreigners do

> it, they should appreciate the scraps we give them

> for doing our grunt work right?

Ha ha, ha?

The truth is they?re doing us a favour by coming here and embarrassing us with their skills. Yeah yeah, of course I?m a xenophobe, there you go again putting words into people?s mouths.

Ask any farmer trying to get crops out of the ground about labour, homegrown or otherwise. It?s in such short supply that crops don?t get picked or they often scale down the production. We don?t have the skills even when there is the labour to be had, we?re (the brits) not skilled enough.

Have you ever watched a team of skilled fruit pickers? Have you ever seen how fast, selective and dextrous they are? And to think people imagine we?re up for pulling ourselves through this situation with a bunch of locals, then think again. (The locals aren?t that keen btw.)

[malumbu]

I picked peas for a couple of summers with local workers, I expect many were settled Romany or others who were the 'rural poor'. We crept off to sign on once a week. As a young person I was relatively slow compared to some of the old hands. They've mostly died off and the next generation were not interested on that level of pay and relative hardship.

I later worked in a factory where we did a trial of a new product that had to be hand packaged. Wow, seeing those fingers move (it was a totally female packing staff, indicative of the country at that point). #Again they will have mainly died out. Probably with bad arthritic fingers in their later life.....

So I have seen British workers being dexterous, fast etc. But a generation ago. Always love Countryfile, particularly where they are at the high end of picking/harvesting, and the fancy machine is operated by an Eastern European who manages the process and tells you all about it very articulately.

[Seabag]

British workers (I use that phrase lightly) have become more dexterous on the Dominos Pizza app.

[Spartacus]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> British workers (I use that phrase lightly) have

> become more dexterous on the Dominos Pizza app.

This exactly

[Seabag]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seabag Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > British workers (I use that phrase lightly)

> have

> > become more dexterous on the Dominos Pizza app.

>

> This exactly

Did someone call you or refer to you as ?this exactly? ?

What?s happening to society 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Sephiroth]

One can choose to believe Cummings. or Johnson

But it only illustrates how shabby and shaky the whole Brexit thing was and is

And to believe that yes, THEY were all fools and untrustworthy knaves, but MY vision for Brexit is way more honourable and will benefit the country... well - that is a very Cummings-like position to adopt isn't it?

Meanwhile Johnson and Frost barking away with the same mantra re NI protocol again as if nothing has changed in 5 years - pure madness

[Seabag]

Teeth must be falling out by now in this ?teething problems? situation .

[JohnL]

The EU they say No within 3 hours

You'd never have guessed (I suppose that was in the plan as it was so obvious).

[JohnL]

OK these food shortages are down to the App

But correct me if I'm wrong but in the past EU truck drivers would do the full journey across Europe to the UK destination and would not be pinged and probably wouldn't have the App or even leave their cab much in the UK.

[Seabag]

Kinda amazing that the world beating app is now the app from hell.