Sunlit uplands. Are we there yet?

[Seabag]

Spartacus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Looks like Leicester Square's been trashed.

> >

> > Not sure if the Police are going to let it go

> or

> > get aggressive today.

>

> If only London had water cannons to quell the

> trouble ...

Are you fkn kidding on water canons?

Maybe they could clear your VW campers off of Upland Road while they?re at it ?

[TheCat]

diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not a big fan of the song, but I do get why

> it's popular and caught on.

> I could understand people not liking it if it was

> snarling, crowing, jingoistic etc, but it's the

> Lightening Seeds FFS!... :)

There was a card left on the doorstep at Dover this morning reading....

"Dear England - we unsuccessfully attempted delivery of your item to HOME. Your item has been left with a neighbour"

[fishbiscuits]

With "three lions"... I always interpreted the "it's coming home" climax as a sort of imaginary terrace chant... depicting the improbable fantasy of victory. The way the song gradually builds from a sad/dejected mood, through to cautious optimism, through to this unlikely imaginary celebration. Even as someone who never liked football all that much (never liked the tribalism and aggression), this song was good natured, self-deprecating, charming even... extremely well crafted and catchy.

25 years later... it seems the original intention (or maybe just my interpretation of it?) has been lost! And I think it's fair to say that the "it's coming home chant" is wearing a bit thin now.

BTW... last night. England were good for a bit. Terrible for a lot. Rarely a threat. The close result probably flatters them.

[Sephiroth]

I see Frosty is today complaining about trade increasing between NI and the republic. Saying this is not the idea at all

I mean. If he creates, signs and sells a treaty which puts a border between NI and mainland Britain, what does he think is going to happen?

And if he (or anyone else complaining about this outcome) didnt realise it then yes you very much did not know what you were voting for/signing up to, and your opinions on this matter are valued accordingly

[Seabag]

Did you know one of the many VW vans parked on ?the sunlit uplands? that is Upland Road, is called ?Sunny?.

There you go, some EDF trivia.

[Seabag]

https://apple.news/ALcm2TuuSSZKHZjCUdYg1XA

Watch the video where Frosty basically says he?s fkd up trading with NI for many.

There are ?companies in Great Britain who decide that it?s all too much trouble, reasonably enough ? can?t be bothered to engage with the process,? Lord Frost acknowledged.

The two people either side of him are particularly animated, specially the guy to his left.

It?s an inspiring clip to watch, unless you?re actually trying to trade.

[Sephiroth]

Someone should have warned him what happens when you pull of out of a trading deal with all your nearest partners, including a country you share a border with

I reckon information like that would have been really useful and may have? oh who am I kidding.

So now that we know friction causes traders to look elsewhere to trade (who knew??) will this lead to any enlightenment about Brexit itself and what it means for Britain?s future (ie in wider context, Britain is NI, and Europe is mainland Britain, avoiding the hassle of a relatively small market)

[Sephiroth]

And yes I know the argument from the slow at thinking is ?eu isn?t the world. We can trade with ANYONE?

Which then begs the question why is it a big deal if NI and GB are seeing slowdown in trade volumes. Can?t everyone just go trade elsewhere

Oh but that?s a bad idea according to Frost. Increasing trade between NI and Republic is just not on

[Dub Dub and Away]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Did you know one of the many VW vans parked on

> ?the sunlit uplands? that is Upland Road, is

> called ?Sunny?.

>

> There you go, some EDF trivia.

Thank you Seabag for highlighting that my lovely yellow Campervan, that was imported from Australia hence her name, is called "Sunny"

I also have other Campervans for rent, each with their own unique name, and this glorious weather is just fabulous for a staycation Campervan holiday.

Not sure this was the right thread for you to do some marketing for my business? But thank you none the less.

Jo

[Earl Aelfheah]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> https://apple.news/ALcm2TuuSSZKHZjCUdYg1XA

>

> Watch the video where Frosty basically says he?s

> fkd up trading with NI for many.

>

> There are ?companies in Great Britain who decide

> that it?s all too much trouble, reasonably enough

> ? can?t be bothered to engage with the process,?

> Lord Frost acknowledged.

>

> The two people either side of him are particularly

> animated, specially the guy to his left.

>

> It?s an inspiring clip to watch, unless you?re

> actually trying to trade.

FFS. Just watched this. "might have been foreseeable"... you think?

[malumbu]

Great Newsnight when Andrea Leadsom was slagging off the PM - Tories have become the Brexit party, Trumpian populist politics, no moral compass, useless cabinet.

Really enjoyed it until I realised that it was Anna Soubry rather than Leadsome.... duh. She was right of course.

I hate using the Express but on this occasion worth a read:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1462878/anna-soubry-bbc-newsnight-tory-mp-trumping-type-conservative-party-ont

[Sephiroth]

Another express link. I know I know

But

It is madness isn?t it? Cat? Tell me it?s madness. How many Brexit voters actually think this way? Anecdotally, I would say most of the people I know would agree with this article

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1463453/EU-news-farming-red-tape-empty-shelves-Britain-Brexit-news-latest-news-latest-vn/amp

[TheCat]

I dont really get the outrage, like this is a surprise ?....leaving the EU meant that it would be harder for EU workers to come here. That is one thing we can surely agree that everyone, no matter they voted, we're fully aware of pre-vote.

If you question is how can this possibly have a positive outcome. Well there are a number of possibilities:

1) fruit picking wages and condition improve, and more locals are incentivsed to pick fruit. The corrolorray being that UK fruit and veg becomes more expensive of course, but that is the price paid for upwards wage pressure.

2) farmers will be encouraged to investing in other forms of productivity improvements, thus reducing the requirement for hordes of low paid workers over time. Improving productivity makes for a strong economy as a general rule.

3) a sensible govt (which we don't have) would issue enough visas to ensure the indusrty does not suffer excessively in the short term, but still at level below what it might have been pre-brexit, so as to encourage points 1 and 2 above.

[Sephiroth]

Well the outage is from (as far as I can see) brexiteers

So your supposition that it?s something everyone can agree on is flawed. I would suggest

As for your positive outcomes - good luck with that

(Again you admit we don?t have a good government. But that is fundamentally intertwined with Brexit. You can?t have a good government AND Brexit )

[TheCat]

As I've said many times before. I don't speak on behalf of brexiteers or other leave voters. I don't know what they collectively thought or think.

I'm just making my points to indicate my own thinking, and illustrate that there were more reasons to vote leave than just racism or ignorance. That's not to say there weren't people for whom they were the driving factors. But equally, many remain voters were similarly ignorant of the important issues in my view and didn't really know why they voted to remain....but that's another story and has been done to death anyway.

This govt is making brexit more difficult than it needs to be I think. But the answer to the question asked in 2016 needed to be given without knowing who would form our cabinet 5 years later....having this govt now does not invalidate the reasons for voting one way or the other 5 years ago. For me these are two separate issues..the brexit vote is for a generation (at least), the govt has a term of 5 years. Imagine voting one way or the other in 2016 becuase you either liked or hated George Osbourne and David Cameron...that would feel a bit like a wasted voted today I would think. Seemingly you can't see how they can be separated? If so, then on that we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> As for your positive outcomes - good luck with

> that

>

Sure. We shall see. But just for clarity, I haven't pulled these points out of my @rse....it's well accepted economic theory as to how an industry that has been reliant on low paid labour should act when that labour supply is crimped...That's not to say it will pan out exactly that way of course...but it's what the textbooks will tell you...

[Seabag]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I dont really get the outrage, like this is a

> surprise ?....leaving the EU meant that it would

> be harder for EU workers to come here. That is onel

> thing we can surely agree that everyone, no matter

> they voted, we're fully aware of pre-vote.

>

> If you question is how can this possibly have a

> positive outcome. Well there are a number of

> possibilities:

>

> 1) fruit picking wages and condition improve, and

> more locals are incentivsed to pick fruit. The

> corrolorray being that UK fruit and veg becomes

> more expensive of course, but that is the price

> paid for upwards wage pressure.

> 2) farmers will be encouraged to investing in

> other forms of productivity improvements, thus

> reducing the requirement for hordes of low paid

> workers over time. Improving productivity makes

> for a strong economy as a general rule.

> 3) a sensible govt (which we don't have) would

> issue enough visas to ensure the indusrty does not

> suffer excessively in the short term, but still at

> level below what it might have been pre-brexit, so

> as to encourage points 1 and 2 above.

Oh lorks, seriously. Have you ever done manual labour, of this nature?

It?s back breaking , weather dependent and financially soul destroying. Hence why foreign ?skills? are bought in to do it, and they?re the very best at it, because that?s the only way to make it work out and pay.

Sometime ago a Cambridge farmer was on the radio, and basically even if you took every unemployed person in the county, including the fat/feeble/down right useless, you?d still not fill all the seasonal jobs hneeded to pick everything.

And the very same voters who voted whatever aren?t prepared to pay for a ?picked by a local person? courgette or tomato, because left to their own devices, they don?t give a fck.

[JohnL]

I remember going on holiday to Norfolk as a young boy (1970s) and my father pointing out that many people aged over a certain (not old) age there walked with a bent back due to working hard.

Sounds like a fake memory but I'm sure it was true.

[TheCat]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I dont really get the outrage, like this is a

> > surprise ?....leaving the EU meant that it

> would

> > be harder for EU workers to come here. That is

> onel

> > thing we can surely agree that everyone, no

> matter

> > they voted, we're fully aware of pre-vote.

> >

> > If you question is how can this possibly have a

> > positive outcome. Well there are a number of

> > possibilities:

> >

> > 1) fruit picking wages and condition improve,

> and

> > more locals are incentivsed to pick fruit. The

> > corrolorray being that UK fruit and veg becomes

> > more expensive of course, but that is the price

> > paid for upwards wage pressure.

> > 2) farmers will be encouraged to investing in

> > other forms of productivity improvements, thus

> > reducing the requirement for hordes of low paid

> > workers over time. Improving productivity makes

> > for a strong economy as a general rule.

> > 3) a sensible govt (which we don't have) would

> > issue enough visas to ensure the indusrty does

> not

> > suffer excessively in the short term, but still

> at

> > level below what it might have been pre-brexit,

> so

> > as to encourage points 1 and 2 above.

>

> Oh lorks, seriously. Have you ever done manual

> labour, of this nature?

>

> It?s back breaking , weather dependent and

> financially soul destroying. Hence why foreign

> ?skills? are bought in to do it, and they?re the

> very best at it, because that?s the only way to

> make it work out and pay.

>

> Sometime ago a Cambridge farmer was on the radio,

> and basically even if you took every unemployed

> person in the county, including the

> fat/feeble/down right useless, you?d still not

> fill all the seasonal jobs hneeded to pick

> everything.

>

> And the very same voters who voted whatever aren?t

> prepared to pay for a ?picked by a local person?

> courgette or tomato, because left to their own

> devices, they don?t give a fck.

I'm not quite sure that the collection of anecdotes above is how we should think about national economic policy. It strikes me that the vocal remainers tend to struggle to see the potential for transformation beyond the immediate negative impacts. Brexit will undoubtedly transform the British economy, and any transition will have losers/challenges at various points in time. So yes, if the farmer wants to continue his or her business in the exact same way as before when there was abundant cheap labour, then that failure to adapt will mean he or she probably goes out of business. But overall, industries adapt and improve - this would be the case with or without brexit - but brexit has certainly accelerated some aspects of economic transition.

I personally think that if the country breaks its reliance on a low skilled, low wage labour force (which won't be easy) then that will ultimately be a good thing overall.

A reference for anyone not familiar with labour productivity and impact on the economy....

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5887/economics/uk-labour-productivity

As an aside...nice bit of passive xenophobia with this...

It?s back breaking , weather dependent and

> financially soul destroying. Hence why foreign

> ?skills? are bought in to do it, and they?re the

> very best at it, because that?s the only way to

> make it work out and pay.

So what you're saying is it's hard, and we don't pay much for it...so just let the foreigners do it, they should appreciate the scraps we give them for doing our grunt work right?

[Sephiroth]

It?s just a shame that all the losers will be the people who were conned into voting for Brexit isn?t it?

(And yes they were conned - fishermen, Northern Ireland unionists, etc)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN29415G

If you voted Brexit and don?t feel conned, your time will come

The rest is all high-minded theory - like communism. Would be great only none is doing it right

One can?t argue with a true believer

[JohnL]

Let Robots do it - but they probably not be happy.

I'm sure it disfigures.

[TheCat]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> One can?t argue with a true believer

That door swings both ways though doesn't it!

On hearing economics that supports remain 'We must listen to the experts'

On hearing economics that supports leaving 'high minded theory'

[Sephiroth]

False equivalence. There is no body of reapected economists supporting leave

Ditto vaccines

Ditto climate change

Ditto tobacco

[diable rouge]

'' So what you're saying is it's hard, and we don't pay much for it...so just let the foreigners do it, they should appreciate the scraps we give them for doing our grunt work right?''

Blimey Cat, talk about putting words into someone else's mouth.

The whole point of FoM was that no one was forcing EU nationals to do this type of work, and those that did obviously made a decision that it was worthwhile. And it might not necessarily be just for economic reasons, some people might want to experience working abroad somewhere, learning a new language/culture etc. And of course it went both ways, Brits could work in the EU, and it wasn't just high-flyers jetting off to Paris or Frankfurt, many worked in lower-skilled/paid jobs such as summer/winter resorts (the latter who've recently been told don't bother applying for jobs next season unless you're an EU passport holder), bar workers, boat crew, grape pickers etc.

''...remainers tend to struggle to see the potential for transformation beyond the immediate negative impacts''

That's really not the issue, which is that the Leave campaign never said there would be a negative impact, quite the opposite in fact...

''There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside''

And if remainers pointed out that there would be, it was dismissed as Project Fear. We were even told we wouldn't leave the Single Market.

There were ways we could've Brexited AND minimised the economic impact, but no, that wasn't ideological enough, let's set fire to everything and start again...

[diable rouge]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On hearing economics that supports leaving 'high

> minded theory'

If only, instead we have Patrick Minford...