Plea to dog owners in Dulwich Park

[AllisonAdler]

The problem with Penguin68's argument (and I usually agree with you on other things, Penguin), is that people do have dogs, and they owe them a duty of care in exactly the same way that we owe or fellow humans a duty of care. I don't think it's right to prioritise one creature over another, to be perfectly honest, and I think the human presumption that we are somehow more important is a fairly big reason for the world's being in the troubled state that it is (environmentally especially). There is no Covid risk to humans from dogs, so there isn't any need for conflict on that score.

It is indeed the case that dogs have evolved with humans, thousands of years before the advent of selective breeding, to participate in human domesticity. There is a lot of scientific material out there about it if anyone cares to look.

Anyway, one of my dogs is always on a lead in the park because she doesn't have great recall (even though she loves people, never jumps up on them, and is very gentle). She's not hugely keen on running around (indolence on her part), but she's allowed to in the woods if she likes. My other one has excellent recall (and is also friendly), but I have had her on lead a bit more in the park where there are crowds just to avoid causing distress. She does really need time off lead, though, and it wouldn't be right to have her on all the time, whatever is happening in our world. I think KidKruger is exactly right in this instance.

[Penguin68]

If dogs put people at risk (and, as they can carry the virus on their fur, they can) then they should be controlled at this time.

I certainly agree that you shouldn't keep a dog without looking after it properly, and that does include exercise, but if your looking after it puts other people either at risk, or legitimate fear of risk, then you need to consider your position seriously. People avoiding exercise because they are frightened of dogs exercising out-of-control simply isn't acceptable, when outdoor exercise is the only option available to us. Of course taking dogs out, on leads, is fine and necessary. But I am one of these who puts people's need ahead of other animals (and no, that doesn't mean I am happy with poor or cruel treatment of other living things). You, AllisonAdler seem to be exercising proper care, but others clearly aren't.

[alice]

if its really a problem then why not ask the council to fence of a section of park just for dogs. and ban them elsewhere.

[rupert james]

There really is not a problem apart from young parents who have to find something to moan at which does not fit into their ordered lifestyle.

I have been using the park since I was born some 70 odd years years and it does seem that all these problems and other problems have appeared since the new residents appeared. Rather like people

moving to the country, remarking how wonderful it all is and then wanting to change everything to their liking.

Church bells, smells, cows etc come to mind.

Dogs, people, children and parks have coexisted forever but now you have to follow new lifestyle rules.

Oh for the days when people were able to live a life without others commenting on it and wanting to change everything

The park has been in existence and worked for many many years so why is it suddenly not working in this new age, the rules of which I find confusing

I do note that not much has been said about out of control children on moving objects and whether rules should be brought in to control them.

If the odd playful dog jumps up in fun how many others do not? Children normally except the situation but it usually is parents that start a panic from experience.

Coexist is the watchword.

If owners know their dog has a problem keep them on a lead until it is safe to let them run not difficult

[AllisonAdler]

Just as a public service announcement, there is absolutely no evidence that dogs can carry COVID on fur.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Lebanums Wrote:

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> I am also a little nervous of dogs having never

> had any growing up. I manage with friends dogs but

> I don't want strange dogs running & jumping up at

> me. It's not a case of let them approach you.

>

> It's complete disregard for other park users.

>

> Another issue is not picking up after their dogs,

> there is so much poo on the streets at the moment.

Yep, dog owners should keep their pets under control and stop them harassing other park users. I've had more than one picnic upset by a dog running across it, jumping all over everything, only to have the owner amble over casually and say something like "ah, I think he likes you" as I try to wrestle it off me and protect my lunch. Not everyone likes other peoples dogs as much as they do.

[Sally Eva]

AllisonAdler Wrote:

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> Just as a public service announcement, there is

> absolutely no evidence that dogs can carry COVID

> on fur.

The Kennel Club accepts that dogs can carry Covid on their fur -- just like any other surface really

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health-and-dog-care/health/health-and-care/a-z-of-health-and-care-issues/coronavirus/

"There have been a very small number of reports of dogs testing positive for the novel coronavirus following contact with infected humans. However, those animals didn?t show signs of the disease and it is believed they tested positive due to breathing in contaminated air from infected humans or carrying the disease on their fur.

As with any surface, if someone with Covid-19 touches, sneezes or coughs on a dog, the virus could temporarily contaminate them. Although we don?t know how long Covid-19 can survive on surfaces, scientists think that it could range from a few hours to several days, depending on the type of surface, how warm it is and levels of humidity."

[AylwardS]

Brightfield1975 there is a link to the park bylaws which define the areas from this page on the Council website if you didn?t see the previous message.

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/parks-and-open-spaces/parks-information/dogs-in-parks

[AllisonAdler]

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> AllisonAdler Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Just as a public service announcement, there is

> > absolutely no evidence that dogs can carry

> COVID

> > on fur.

>

> The Kennel Club accepts that dogs can carry Covid

> on their fur -- just like any other surface

> really

>

> https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health-and-dog-ca

> re/health/health-and-care/a-z-of-health-and-care-i

> ssues/coronavirus/

>

> "There have been a very small number of reports of

> dogs testing positive for the novel coronavirus

> following contact with infected humans. However,

> those animals didn?t show signs of the disease and

> it is believed they tested positive due to

> breathing in contaminated air from infected humans

> or carrying the disease on their fur.

>

> As with any surface, if someone with Covid-19

> touches, sneezes or coughs on a dog, the virus

> could temporarily contaminate them. Although we

> don?t know how long Covid-19 can survive on

> surfaces, scientists think that it could range

> from a few hours to several days, depending on the

> type of surface, how warm it is and levels of

> humidity."

Not according to the CDC, which is probably more authoritative:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/pets.html

Interestingly, they do suggest keeping pets away from others entirely to prevent pets from contracting Covid from humans.

[KidKruger]

We avoid stroking other dogs and allowing others to stroke our dogs.

Just seems like common sense until we know for sure what the deal is.

[alice]

everything has surface.

Surfaces can carry the virus.

Dogs have surfaces.

Therefore

Dogs can carry the virus.

[alice]

Inference beats deduction.

[Penguin68]

I'm guessing the CDC is saying that you can't catch Covid from a dog that might have it. But thinking of a dog as a collection of surfaces on which the virus can rest you clearly can. You're just catching Covid from a person via a dog, as you might via a door handle. Physics, not biology.

[AllisonAdler]

Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm guessing the CDC is saying that you can't

> catch Covid from a dog that might have it. But

> thinking of a dog as a collection of surfaces on

> which the virus can rest you clearly can. You're

> just catching Covid from a person via a dog, as

> you might via a door handle. Physics, not biology.

The science doesn't seem to support this (from WebMD based on studies published in the New England Jo of Medicine and The Lancet):

Researchers have found that the coronavirus can stay alive on surfaces. A New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) study from April showed that the new coronavirus can survive on plastic and stainless steel for up to 3 days, and on cardboard for up to 1 day. Another study from China found that the virus can travel on the soles of shoes.

But the results of studies like this one have led some people to exaggerate the risk of COVID-19 transmission, says Emanuel Goldman, PhD, a professor of microbiology, biochemistry, and molecular genetics at the New Jersey Medical School of Rutgers University. In a response published in The Lancet Infectious Diseases this past May, he wrote that the NEJM study used much higher concentrations of the virus than people would find in the real world.

"In my opinion, the chance of transmission through inanimate surfaces is very small, and only in instances where an infected person coughs or sneezes on the surface, and someone else touches that surface soon after the cough or sneeze (within 1-2 hours)," Goldman wrote. Basically, it would take the perfect combination of events Blumberg described to get sick from touching something contaminated with the virus.

Also, studies have only proved that the virus stays alive on surfaces -- not that you can catch it from touching those surfaces. "They don't prove that just because it can survive on a surface, it can be transmitted that way," Blumberg says.

Backup from another study in The Lancet https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30678-2/fulltext)

The press was all over this a bit ago, too, e.g.: https://www.itv.com/news/2020-10-06/chance-of-catching-covid-19-from-surfaces-less-than-previously-thought-scientists-claim

[exdulwicher]

If owners know their dog has a problem keep them on a lead until it is safe to let them run not difficult

Well that's the common sense answer but unfortunately as referenced several times in this thread, the owner is often of the persuasion that "oh look, Rover is being friendly" as the dog bounds all over you.

There was a deer killed in Richmond Park in October by an out of control, off the lead dog; the owner got fined ?602 by Wimbledon Magistrates a couple of days ago. Royal Parks Police posted a snippet of video footage (heavily edited down as it was very upsetting) of walkers and cyclists forming a ring around the deer trying to protect it.

[Nigello]

I love dogs and make a point of coo-cooing them and generally don't get cheesed off if they bound over to me and jump up, etc., but on two occasions I thought about how I would react had the two animals been barking at/jumping up at someone who was not a fan of dogs or who was afraid. Both were on leads, both had owners who meekly said "oh, I'm sorry, ha ha!". I said to the owner today who said that "Good. You should be."

[KidKruger]

Dogs shouldn't be jumping-up in this weather anyway, muddy feet and clean coats are not good bedfellows.

I saw a woman in a park last week, big pink coat, covered in mud from a dog that jumped-up repeatedly.

She seemed Ok with it (perhaps because she was walking a dog, dunno), but I wouldn't be and I expect others wouldn't be either.