Another school shooting in US.

[Huguenot]

The reason why mutual armament is no defence against gun crime (and as the annual 11,000 US gun deaths demonstrate) is because the attacker has already decided to use their gun when the defender is still evaluating the situation.

Invariably the defender is a normal, rational, empathic human being whose natural resistance to murder means that they'll take the first bullet - by which time it's too late.

[Alec John Moore]

A critical mass of murders, I suppose. An earlier post referred to "The Troubles" to indicate how entrenched views can shift and a form of peace can be established. We live in hope.

[Fabricio the Guido]

From a purely utilitarian perspective, 11 K dead isn't much compared to the many hundred millions who enjoy owning guns and want to own guns. Only a Kantian approach suggests that each life is valuable and each loss should be avoided in so far as it is possible. #late philosophical musings

[El Pibe]

We do seem to rate death emotively rather than by numbers alone.

11,000 dead is more than the entire aforementioned Troubles, about six months in the Libyan civil war, about a month worth of obesity related deaths in the US and about one in 30 of those killed in the great tsunami.

Of course gunning down six year olds is a bit more shocking than a fat bloke with type 2 diabetes.

It is however every bit the prognosis for a misogynistic macho gun culture as sure as those heart attacks are from the diet rich in sugar, read meat and processed fats.

Something fundamental and structural needs to be done if it's to change, but they don't want to any more than those 100000+ want to change their diet and exercise regimens.

So expect this tale in the news a couple of times a year...

[Huguenot]

I love this phrase 'enjoy owning guns' - I'm wondering what form 'enoying' a gun takes?

[*Bob*]

Guns can be exciting, fascinating and cool though - as well as monstrous, can't they? It would be disingenuous to pretend otherwise when half the entertainment industry somewhat relies on them for the fireworks that powers our suspended-disbelief fun.

If you can't get enough of seeing Bruce Schwarzenegger, Private Ryan or The Corleones tooling-up to face their adversaries (choose your type of fix) then it's not so hard to see how popping-off a few caps of your own might be a rush - if it just happened to be readily available. And if you enjoy that, you might as well pick your own hardware.

We're quick to draw the line here in the uk - but in reality it's only a line that (over in the US) continues to a natural, unfettered, poorly-regulated conclusion.

[Chillaxed]

My mates took me to Estonia for my stag do and one of the activties was an hour at a range firing increasingly large assault guns. I was very hungover and mildly bored. But two of my mates were well up for it and started asking questions like 'what sort of wound would this gun make?' and 'how far away from a person could you be and still kill them?'. One spent close to 100 euro on extra ammo. Both are otherwise 'normal' blokes. So while I don't get it myself, you don't need to be a cammo-wearing survivalist to enjoy firing a gun.

[nashoi]

11,000 deaths annually in a population of 311,000,000 equates to a 0.00004% chance of being fatally wounded.

How much political capital is Obama likely to burn through in order to reduce that?

Consider your child's school contacting you to inform you that they were planning a new activity (some type of outdoor pursuit for example) and they need your consent. They tell they cannot guarantee 100% safety but they can guarantee 99.99996% safety. Would you be happy with that? If other parents campaigned against it would you view them as acting rationally?

[*Bob*]

Stats are great, but it's not all about the stats. It's about what feel right and wrong - or at least what ought to feel right and wrong.

Would you want your child to go to a school where some of the teachers were armed and classes practiced 'lockdown drill'? Would that seem reasonable, or would something in the back of your mind (or hopefully the front of it) be saying 'this feels a bit wrong'?

[Parkdrive]

nashoi Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> 11,000 deaths annually in a population of

> 311,000,000 equates to a 0.00004% chance of being

> fatally wounded.

>

Equates to far too many. When are the Americans going to learn? Americans, not all I'll grant you, seem to think they still live in Wild West!!!!!!!!!!

[Dulwichmudlark]

New laws wouldn't make much difference or would banning guns thay will always be available legal or not just have to look closer to home to see that hand gun crime has gone up steadily since being banned in the uk after dunblane guns will always beavlible and there will always be one nutter ur local pub is often the place to. Buy guns even in dulwich

[StraferJack]

The hardly left-leaning New York post reaction to the NRA speech

http://twitter.com/TheObamaDiary/status/282473177932783616/photo/1

Surely signs are there that there is the beginning of a culture shift?

[Alan Medic]

Another nutter killed 3 people on a highway today/yesterday before being shot himself. Probably wouldn't have normally made the news.

[civilservant]

Some statistics to put the US in perspective relative to the UK

Total annual firearm related death-rate in US = 10.2 (UK = 0.25 i.e. US rate is over 40 times higher)

Annual firearm-related homicides = 3.7 (UK = 0.04 i.e. US rate is over 90 times higher))

Annual firearm-related suicides = 6.1 (UK = 0.07 i.e. US rate is almost 90 times higher)

(All figures are per 100,000 population.)

If anyone has an argument in favour of their approach to guns versus ours, I'd like to hear it.

As for the sacredness of the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms, it's only an amendment, which means that it can be amended, and so can the US Constitution itself (which it has been 27 times in less than 250 years!).

[New Nexus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9cLRYoAIGY

[Huguenot]

Ah, I've been waiting for New Nexus to arrive and trivialise the deaths of 20 innocent schoolchildren by claiming it's part of a conspiracy to prevent Americans defending themselves from the government.

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The hardly left-leaning New York post reaction to

> the NRA speech

>

> http://twitter.com/TheObamaDiary/status/2824731779

> 32783616/photo/1

>

> Surely signs are there that there is the beginning

> of a culture shift?

I hear a senetor on Radio 4 the other morning, a liberal who wants gun law changed. He felt that the tide is turning, and that the more military type weapon could be banned from domestic use.

When asked about basic handguns in the home being banned though, he didn't hesitate in saying "that will never happen in the US".

[Parkdrive]

2 fireman killed in the US while trying to put out a fire. Yep, you're right America, you need lots more guns, billions of em, how else you gonna keep gun crime down. Good old US of A.

[Marmora Man]

PD - I think you're losing a degree of objectivity here. Some gentle teasing over 72 hours seems to ignited a degree of unnecessary anger.

I like Foie Gras - get over it!

[Huguenot]

Wrong thread MM?

[Parkdrive]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> PD - I think you're losing a degree of objectivity

> here. Some gentle teasing over 72 hours seems to

> ignited a degree of unnecessary anger.

>

> I like Foie Gras - get over it!

And some people put posts on the correct threads. He has got all the cerebal capacity of Foie Gras though.

No Hugo he's just lost the plot.

[KidKruger]

I read it as MM interpreting Parky's comment on this thread as an angry rant, so queried whether the Foie Gras banter had wound him up, what with all the banter on that separate thread.

[sweaty-pedal-pusher]

,...............................................................

['bout now]

For the U.S.A pro gun lobby, mental health seems to be the main issue. However gun ownership and marketing is as cynical as flogging cigarettes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/25/business/real-and-virtual-firearms-nurture-marketing-link.html?_r=0