We are indeed fortunate

[Sephiroth]

Trinny is just part of a wider Leave bloc* - from Farage, to Redwood and all of the Tory "bastards", they will never ever be happy. It's not enough to be out of the EU - they want it destroyed

And will they be happy then? Of course not

[TheCat]

Trinny seems to be getting a very hard time from the lot of you for doing what most on here seem to think is fine when it supports the opposite view. Just linking to various news articles.

Furthermore, let's be honest, this forum is overwhelmingly 'remain' (in keeping with this area being one of the most remain constituencies in the country of course), and one of the frustrations for any leaver entering this discussion is that even when a decent point is made in support of brexit (or in criticism of the EU in this case) basically NO ONE on here actually seems to acknowledge or concede. Its as if many on here believe that conceding one a small point somehow puts risk their whole position...which it clearly doesn't.

On this thread for example (and I have previously mentioned this issue on the other thread), not one person has acknowledged that 'yes, maybe on this point I can see that the EU has f@cked up, and it seems like it might be a benefit that we are not tied to their vaccination procurement scheme'. It is possible to actually say this and still be an ardent remainer for a multitude of other reasons.

But no one does..instead the subject is changed to things like 'asking about how other counties have dealt with the virus', or lets focus on the 'broader picture rollout strategies'.....why not just concede a point and then move on to those other discussions?

I personally have learnt to never expect it from anyone on this forum, as it seems to be asking too much (despite the fact that I have conceded various weaknesses in the leave argument multiple times over the years in my posts)....so I empathise with Trinny's frustration at the dogmatism on display on this issue in particular.....and see why he is hammering away at the same point....probably becuase it will once again be dismissed and unacknowledged.....

PS Sephiroth....the article above is quoting a GERMAN scientist, so accordingly to your rationale on the other thread quoting what everyone OUTSIDE of the UK thinks, this should be right up your street....

[Sephiroth]

Trinny isn't getting a hard time for "linking to various articles" like other people do, or because they happen to be a different view

To the specific point - as of Jan 2 2021 it does appear as if there is concern about EU procurement of vaccine. Just as there is concern about UK procurement and deployment. No-one is looking in great shape

But if someone (let's call them Trinnydad) decides that only the EU has a problem and therefore it somehow justifies the massive self-own that is Brexit then yeah they will correctly get picked up on it

(plus TD is knowingly doing this - across multiple threads that they are starting themselves. lets not be all defensive on their behalf )

[diable rouge]

It's a shame but very predictable that vaccine procurement and roll-out has become another part of the on-going culture war by certain elements. Producing the vaccines has been an international effort within the scientific community, Pfizer being an example where you have a US parent company working with a German start-up company formed by 2nd generation Turkish, manufactured in Belgium, and there will be many nationalities working within each. I'm sure it's likewise with the Oxford/AstraZeneca set-up. Instead of trying to score cheap political points try and be thankful that such effective vaccines have been found so comparatively quickly, regardless of who, where, or how they came about. That's what we should be feeling fortunate about...

[TheCat]

I don't believe pointing out the realities of vaccine procurement programme in anyway belittles the amazing international scientific effort to develop the various vaccines (which of course we all feel very fortunate about).

Playing the 'distasteful' card here is just another method of dismissing the valid point being made DR.

[Blah Blah]

Well Said DR. The development of vaccines is an example of where collaboration and regulatory alignment works. Lives are saved because of it. So in fact, we should be thanking TrinnyTroll for highlighting that success of collaboration, and asking if it will be so straightforward now that we can no longer take advantage of Erasmus based exchange programs run by various prestigious R&D Universities across the EU. But I digress.....

On the vaccine supply, every government wants to claim they are on top of any rollout. That is natural. But when governments change the science to suit their own logistical problems (suggesting that people can have two different vaccines when there is NO medical trails to check if that is even effective, let alone safe), that is something we should all worry about. Something clearly has gone wrong with the second shipment of the Pfizer vaccine, otherwise 2nd jab appointments wouldn't be being cancelled. Now either that is a supply issue, or it is some holdup in batch verification (all batches that arrive have to be checked), or it is government worrying about the longer time frame for the delivery of that specific order (it is not delivered all at once remember), or any other vaccine deliveries.

Bear in mind that the UK have to vaccinate almost 30 million people twice, just to to cover all vulnerable age groups, front line workers and those with underlying conditions. Even at 1 million shots a week, that is going to be six months. Countries with smaller populations are going to get there faster. Countries with larger populations slower.

Government logic has now become to reduce the death rates over reducing infection rates, so that restrictions can be eased. But this is a tricky route to take, because for all those who die, other multiples need ICU treatment to recover. And when restrictions ease, infection rates rise. There is also the issue with just people getting ill in general, and being unwell for weeks, fatigued for even longer in some cases. People of work ill also hit the economy if those figures are high enough. This is a difficult balance to strike on many levels, not just the issue of mortality.

[TheCat]

I dont think what you've said there is unreasonable BB

But you're conflating rollout with procurement.

The original point being made is that it appears the timing of the EU procurement plan has been a disappointment versus the UK procurement plan. Which it can be argued is a brexit issue

The competency of the govt in now rolling those procured does out is not a brexit issue at all. And indeed, things like delaying 2nd jabs, and the logistics of the rollout are a concern, and worthy of discussion. But, again, they don't invalidate the procurement point that your mate Trinny is making....

[Blah Blah]

Sorry, but I reject that, because procurement isn't the determining factor for availability. And if you want to be detailed about it, the UK only ordered one initial order from Pfizer, over other countries that put in repeat orders to begin with. Any repeat order for us will now be at the back of a long queue. And you know better than to defend the ludicrous claims of Trinny. You are better than that.

[JohnL]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tougher-coronavirus-measures-boris-johnson-lockdown-b674102.html

Why does he do this (warn of a lockdown) - it just makes panic.

[JohnL]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry, but I reject that, because procurement

> isn't the determining factor for availability. And

> if you want to be detailed about it, the UK only

> ordered one initial order from Pfizer, over other

> countries that put in repeat orders to begin with.

> Any repeat order for us will now be at the back of

> a long queue. And you know better than to defend

> the ludicrous claims of Trinny. You are better

> than that.

I noticed most of the other countries had repeat orders whilst we didn't when they were published before Xmas.

I think we are banking on the Oxford vaccine - we might be lucky

[JohnL]

Schools are as safe as anybody else he says - but you just suspect he'll row back on this as logically a teacher in a class of children is not as isolated from the virus as me alone in my flat.

[JohnL]

Back to this thread for some really bad thoughts from Peston - hope he's wrong

[malumbu]

The above shows the danger of heresay and Twitter - there is no common view that the South African variant is vaccine tolerant. As shown in London and the South East there are dangers that mutations could be more contagious. The South Africans are good at genome sequencing. One of the concerns when the French closed the border was that 'our' variant was common across Europe, they just hadn't looked for it in the same way that we had (much for genomic sequencing in the UK than on the continent).

OMG I've just said something that supports the sentiment of this thread.

[Blah Blah]

Worth remembering Malumbu that a huge part of the human genome project was done in Cambridge and we really are at the forefront globally of that type of genetic science, attracting the best scientists from all over the world. This is why those who make denial claims, that covid is a hoax, or that it was created in a lab etc, don't understand how advanced we really are in that area of science in the UK.

[JohnL]

Twitters bad for rumours (and fights) - but we should expect someone like Peston to be telling the truth.

The Independent has named his source but there's an additional paragraph :)

"John Bell, regius professor of medicine at University of Oxford, who sits on the government?s vaccine taskforce, said on Sunday there was a ?big question mark? as to whether the vaccines currently being rolled out would work on the South African variant."

"However, Professor Bell also said it was "unlikely? the mutation would make vaccines entirely ineffective, and it should be possible to tweak existing vaccines in around four to six weeks. ?Everybody should stay calm ? it?s going to be fine,?"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-variant-south-africa-matt-hancock-b1781903.html

[Trinnydad]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Trinny is just part of a wider Leave bloc* - from

> Farage, to Redwood and all of the Tory "bastards",

> they will never ever be happy. It's not enough to

> be out of the EU - they want it destroyed

>

The EU will self-destruct with time. I can wait.

You refer to Tory "bastards". That is a clear indication of your tribal intolerance of opposing views. A malaise often found in left-wing activist cliques akin to Momentum and Militant Tendency. They all were marginalised in the end.

[Sephiroth]

Ah bless. Those who don?t know their history are doomed to treat it

It was a phrase made famous by John Major. Who last time I checked was tory prime minister at the time

[Trinnydad]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ah bless. Those who don?t know their history are

> doomed to repeat it

>

> It was a phrase made famous by John Major. Who

> last time I checked was tory prime minister at the

> time

Not accurate. It was Churchill who said that when he plagiarised George Santayana's original quotation.

Santayana also said :-

"" Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual.""

This ought to be memorised by the embittered and intolerant infants of the Left who don't seem to realise that Marxism/Leninism is but a failed philosophy.

[Sephiroth]

Christ almighty

?Tory bastards? was the phrase made famous by Major

Not history repeating itself.

[malumbu]

Going back to rumours and conspiracy theories I have come up with my own. Us plucky Brits will hopefully be able to travel in months to come with our vaccination passports. These will be like pet passports and it would be really useful if we are also chipped when we get the jab. So microchips and the vaccine are connected after all. We are indeed fortunate.

I thank you

Confused even more of you now.

[Blah Blah]

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Christ almighty

>

> ?Tory bastards? was the phrase made famous by Major

>

> Not history repeating itself.

I think that is the perfect example Sephiroth, of someone so intent on demonishing a perceived other side, that they lose sight of the ignorance displayed in their own bias ;)

[wordsworth]

Christ this thread is making me want to roll another one... not

[TheCat]

I think its pretty important that we begin to see a 'Daily Inoculations" (and a cumulative chart) next to the macabre infections, hospitalizations, deaths data that's so prominent on a daily basis wherever we look.....

At least that way the population can see that something is being done....

[TheCat]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/overseas-visitors-face-uk-curbs-amid-fears-of-fresh-covid-variants

thanks f#ck for that....after 9 months of trying to fill a bucket with hole in the bottom, somebody has reaslised we need some form of enforced controls/checks/tests/quarantine at the border points....Heathrow is an international hub airport, and even with lower passenger numbers surely its a key melting pot/access point for the virus into the UK....

[KidKruger]

Almost a year after the horse has bolted.

The Govt priority is not the nation?s health !