What does 'no through road' mean

[Cora]

I think if I follow long threads I may find the answer but can someone confirm exactly what is meant by the new 'no through road' signs.

If for example I turn into College road during the times restricted to visit someone on College road, i.e. for access is that ok?

If I turn down Towny road then remember it is not allowed and turn left back round onto Lordship Lane is that ok?

I.e do you have to set off 2 lots of cameras for it to be being used as a 'through road'.

I drive very rarely and am paranoid of slipping up!! These signs seem so unfair...and assume people will know the road layout and rules in advance....

Any clarification greatly received.

Thanks

[KidKruger]

I believe?

If you go through the ?no through road? signs during the times the sign told you not to, you may be liable to a fine/penalty charge notice.

In some places I think they will be putting up cameras.

However, I think there are some instances where you simply cannot enter the road and then proceed to the other end due to bollards or some other obstacle having been placed there by the council.

ETA: There won?t be two sets of cameras on the road, there will just be one, after the sign which says no entry between certain times.

[legalalien]

I don?t think it?s the ?no through road? sign that?s the trigger, the question is whether you?ve gone past the blue sign that restricts passage to buses, taxis and cycles. So you could go from the south circular into college road OK, the problem only arises if you enter DV or Burbage Road during the restricted times, for example.

[DulwichFox]

No Through Road simply means that the road does not go anywhere

You can only exit the way you went in.

Foxy

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Where is there a No Through Road sign, specifically?

[Rockets]

DKHB - I think Cora is referring to the red signs that have been put up all around Dulwich close to roads that have been closed - there is one in each direction on Lordship Lane near the Court Lane junction and then one at the entrance of Eynella and more on the DV side of Dulwich as you approach the roundabout along College and Gallery.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

I thought they say "no through route" and "restricted access ahead"...but obviously I haven't done an audit!

College Road isn't "No Through Road" - there are no new restrictions there. Dulwich Village isn't No Through Road either.

[Rockets]

DKHB - the temporary restriction access ahead signs have been added by the council recently - I think because their signs were confusing people.

The signs to which Cora refers do say No Through Route and state the hours and days that the No Through Route applies and they have been put up on the roads approaching the closed roads - this is why people are getting confused because they are indicating that there is a closure ahead but don't say where or how far away and given they a red signs some people are wondering whether they apply from the threshold of the sign or somewhere else.

Cora, as long as you don't cross the threshold of the bus gates during the hours of operation you will be fine. College Road is fine - just don't drive into Dulwich Village or Burbage at the roundabout during the hours of operation as that is where those bus gates are located.

The signs are very confusing - especially for anyone from outside the area who may not be aware of the location of the closures.

[richard tudor]

Rockets.

You seem to have your finger on the pulse regarding this. Is there a very simple map showing where all these bus gates and no through roads are.

Thought I understood but reading your last post do not drive in Dulwich Village from College Road past the roundabout has thrown me.

Does that mean I cannot come from Red Post Hill past North Dulwich Station into College Road coming the other way.

I used to drive to Dulwich Park through the Village does this now mean this is out of bounds.

Thanks

[Rockets]

Richard,

You can come southbound along Dulwich Village at any time - the bus gate currently only operates on the northbound section of the road.

It is confusing and I would suggest deliberately so. It's bit like Townley - you can drive from the EDG end of Townley at any time as the bus gate operates in the other direction (from LL towards EDG).

Here is a list of where all the bus gates are the direction of travel they operate (but no, the council has not provided anything to help people work out what is allowed or not!!! ;-))

......to introduce timed bus gates in which only buses, local buses, taxis and pedal cycles are

permitted to enter and proceed during the period from Monday to Friday between the hours

of 8 am ? 10 am and 3 pm ? 6 pm, in the following locations all of which will be ANPR

camera enforced:

(i) BURBAGE ROAD (northernmost bus gate), the north-westbound lane of

Burbage Road at the north-western kerb-line of Turney Road,

(ii) BURBAGE ROAD (southernmost bus gate), the westbound lane of Burbage

Road at the north-western kerb-line of Gallery Road,

(iii) DULWICH VILLAGE, the northbound lane of Dulwich Village at the common

boundary of Nos. 116 and 118 Dulwich Village,

(iv) TOWNLEY ROAD, the north-westbound lane of Townley Road at the common

boundary of Nos. 52 and 53 Townley Road, and

(v) TURNEY ROAD, the north-eastbound lane of Turney Road at a point 10 metres

north-east of the north-eastern kerb-line of Burbage Road as measured from

the north-eastern side of Turney Road;

[spider69]

Sorry to seem a little dense, old age.

Does this mean I can drive from North Dulwich Station to DP with no problem up towards Dulwich College?

If I come out of the park and turn right can I just drive past the Dog and be alright heading towards Red Post Hill.

I do not want to put money in Southwark's pocket.

Many thanks. I have to admit I have lost the plot.

[legalalien]

You can head to the park (towards the college) at any time of day. If you turn right out of the park, when you get to the burbage road / war memorial roundabout, then you can't go through the village, or go into Burbage Road, during the times listed above, so no, you can't go back the way you came at those times. (You have to turn left out of the park, and go via south circular and lordship lane or croxted road / herne hill, depending on your ultimate destination.)

Alternatively, you could park in the village somewhere just north of the Burbage Road roundabout and walk to the park from there if you can. Then you'd be on the "right side" of the bus gate when leaving (the signs and cameras are at the roundabout), and could drive back past the Dog.

[spider69]

Appreciate this answer. As I have admitted I am a little dense I think I will try and get a job with Southwark Traffic Management.

However I may not be dense enough.

[sandyman]

Yes, i think one of the problems is consistency of signeage (if that's a word)

We recently received a PCN in Lewisham. The red sign said 'road closed' but there were no planters or blockages - and lots of cars driving through ? so we assumed it meant road closed further ahead as is the case with the signs on Townley Road, close to where we live.

Needless to say our appeal was turned down.

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DKHB - the temporary restriction access ahead

> signs have been added by the council recently - I

> think because their signs were confusing people.

>

> The signs to which Cora refers do say No Through

> Route and state the hours and days that the No

> Through Route applies and they have been put up on

> the roads approaching the closed roads - this is

> why people are getting confused because they are

> indicating that there is a closure ahead but don't

> say where or how far away and given they a red

> signs some people are wondering whether they apply

> from the threshold of the sign or somewhere else.

>

> Cora, as long as you don't cross the threshold of

> the bus gates during the hours of operation you

> will be fine. College Road is fine - just don't

> drive into Dulwich Village or Burbage at the

> roundabout during the hours of operation as that

> is where those bus gates are located.

>

> The signs are very confusing - especially for

> anyone from outside the area who may not be aware

> of the location of the closures.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>> The signs to which Cora refers do say No Through Route

Yes, quite so. "No Through Road" has a specific meaning in the Highway Code. "No Through Route" doesn't. I was pointing this out (unintentionally curtly - I went back to edit but the forum has been offline) because understanding what "No Through Road" means won't actually help, because it's not what the signs say.

[KidKruger]

Challenge the appeal ! If you were acting reasonably and the signage wasn?t clear or open to interpretation it?s definitely winnable.

I just won against rejected appeals on CC and ULEZ, I?m now hassling them for compensation. If they want to waste my time and threaten me, they can pay me for my time !

sandyman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, i think one of the problems is consistency of

> signeage (if that's a word)

>

> We recently received a PCN in Lewisham. The red

> sign said 'road closed' but there were no planters

> or blockages - and lots of cars driving through ?

> so we assumed it meant road closed further ahead

> as is the case with the signs on Townley Road,

> close to where we live.

>

> Needless to say our appeal was turned down.

>

>

>

> Rockets Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > DKHB - the temporary restriction access ahead

> > signs have been added by the council recently -

> I

> > think because their signs were confusing people.

>

> >

> > The signs to which Cora refers do say No

> Through

> > Route and state the hours and days that the No

> > Through Route applies and they have been put up

> on

> > the roads approaching the closed roads - this

> is

> > why people are getting confused because they

> are

> > indicating that there is a closure ahead but

> don't

> > say where or how far away and given they a red

> > signs some people are wondering whether they

> apply

> > from the threshold of the sign or somewhere

> else.

> >

> > Cora, as long as you don't cross the threshold

> of

> > the bus gates during the hours of operation you

> > will be fine. College Road is fine - just don't

> > drive into Dulwich Village or Burbage at the

> > roundabout during the hours of operation as

> that

> > is where those bus gates are located.

> >

> > The signs are very confusing - especially for

> > anyone from outside the area who may not be

> aware

> > of the location of the closures.

[sandyman]

thanks - yes i'm still pursuing it. I posted the initial letter of appeal, but didn't hear back and after two weeks put PCN number into the Lewisham website and it said if ?65 fine not paid by the next day it would increase to ?130 so I paid it because it said on the site that if appeal was accepted fine would be refunded. Instead I received a letter the following week saying that because i had paid the fine the case was closed...

I've written back, still waiting for further response.

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Challenge the appeal ! If you were acting

> reasonably and the signage wasn?t clear or open to

> interpretation it?s definitely winnable.

> I just won against rejected appeals on CC and

> ULEZ, I?m now hassling them for compensation. If

> they want to waste my time and threaten me, they

> can pay me for my time !

>

> sandyman Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yes, i think one of the problems is consistency

> of

> > signeage (if that's a word)

> >

> > We recently received a PCN in Lewisham. The red

> > sign said 'road closed' but there were no

> planters

> > or blockages - and lots of cars driving through

> ?

> > so we assumed it meant road closed further

> ahead

> > as is the case with the signs on Townley Road,

> > close to where we live.

> >

> > Needless to say our appeal was turned down.

> >

> >

> >

> > Rockets Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > DKHB - the temporary restriction access ahead

> > > signs have been added by the council recently

> -

> > I

> > > think because their signs were confusing

> people.

> >

> > >

> > > The signs to which Cora refers do say No

> > Through

> > > Route and state the hours and days that the

> No

> > > Through Route applies and they have been put

> up

> > on

> > > the roads approaching the closed roads - this

> > is

> > > why people are getting confused because they

> > are

> > > indicating that there is a closure ahead but

> > don't

> > > say where or how far away and given they a

> red

> > > signs some people are wondering whether they

> > apply

> > > from the threshold of the sign or somewhere

> > else.

> > >

> > > Cora, as long as you don't cross the

> threshold

> > of

> > > the bus gates during the hours of operation

> you

> > > will be fine. College Road is fine - just

> don't

> > > drive into Dulwich Village or Burbage at the

> > > roundabout during the hours of operation as

> > that

> > > is where those bus gates are located.

> > >

> > > The signs are very confusing - especially for

> > > anyone from outside the area who may not be

> > aware

> > > of the location of the closures.

[CharlotteUlverscroft]

Just wondering if anyone has received any fines/warnings for going through these ?bus gates? listed above? I?ve seen multiple cars going in the wrong direction at the specified times and am wondering if the cameras are actually operational yet? Many thanks.

[Sue]

I've had two warnings (a week apart but arrived in the same post) for driving down Burbage Road at forbidden times (which obviously I wasn't clear at the time were forbidden).

Yes, other cars were also doing the same.

ETA: This was in December, so there must have been cameras operational then, but I have no idea where they were situated.

[Rockets]

I suspect someone will submit a FOI to find out how many people have been fined. Someone did that in Lewisham and found that after a few weeks of operation 47000 fines had been issued.

[Romnarz]

A blues sign tells you what is permissible - you should NOT be fine for passing that . Red signs are needed to prohibit you - they need to be placed in a space where the message is clear and unambiguous

[alex_b]

Romnarz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A blues sign tells you what is permissible - you

> should NOT be fine for passing that . Red signs

> are needed to prohibit you - they need to be

> placed in a space where the message is clear and

> unambiguous

That?s not correct; round blue signs are mandatory positive instructions (do this) red circles are mandatory negative instructions (don?t do this). From the government publication on road signs ?Blue circles generally give a mandatory instruction, such as "turn left", or indicate a route available only to particular classes of traffic, e.g. buses and cycles only?