Fined ?75 for dropping a cigar butt - fair?

[seanmlow]

I was standing outside Sommerfield yesterday and was having a cigar, waiting for my sister.

Two men approached me in a rather sheepish fashion, wearing long red coats and brandishing pads. I thought they were from the Salvation Army, and were asking for a donation. Instead, I was told I was in violation of a particular code, read my rights, and handed a 75 POUND FINE. I asked the man, 'where should I put out my cigar?' He pointed to the bins saying they had ashtrays on top. Some do, I agree, but the one near me did not, and I have taken a picture on my phone as proof.

He made it quite clear that if I contest this I will probably lose and end up more out of pocket.

I am furious with the whole ordeal - are these guys really necessary in our area? I assume they are being paid around ?16,000 which is just a joke.

I want to contest this, but am not sure who to contact really?

[jonsuissy]

I don't think you'll get much sympathy.

Littering the streets is fairly low on the anti social scale but on that scale it is.

How about taking a tobacco tin with you and stubbing it out in that?

[Nero]

They are necessary, but they should be warning and not fining on the first instance. They ought to be doing other stuff, like reporting grafitti, getting overgrown trees and shrubs cut down, reporting dog dirt etc. There are other thigns they can do. Why not complain about them being always in twos if there is nothing else you can do? Can't understand that, myself. Two people to fine a cigar butt chucker is a bit excessive.

[Jeremy]

Seems quite a lot of money, but at the end of the day, I don't have much sympathy... sorry! At the end of the day I'm glad there is a fine for littering the streets.

[seanmlow]

Ok, ok people have got me all wrong.

I agree with fining people for littering the streets. A ?10 spot fine, for example, would be a good deterrent.

However, ?75? My sister was fine ?60 for running a red light, which is potentially fatal?

I think the punishment should fit the crime, don't you?

[jocelyn]

There are far more anti social things happening in Southwark that the odd fag butt being dropped. I bet they only approached you as you looked like a normal tax paying middle class citizen. They would never have approached you if you were in a group and looked a bit dodgy!

This seems very extreme if you ask me. ?75 is the same as a parking fine right?

You should at least have had a warning first.

Love to see them try to do the same thing along LL on a Sat night!

[gerritsmith]

are these guys really necessary in our area?

Just one of the new "jobs" this government has created

[gerritsmith]

"I bet they only approached you as you looked like a normal tax paying middle class citizen. They would never have approached you if you were in a group and looked a bit dodgy!"

So true.

Few weeks ago, a woman passnger on a train was issued with a penalty charge ticket which she paid up promptly but down the carriage a stockily built male just ignored the inspectors when asked to see his ticket. At the next stop he walked out of the carriage and was allowed to get away.

[PeckhamRose]

Nero, "They" do do other stuff as well all the time.

I remember attending a council meeting about this ages ago - and the environmental team were discussing how they go out and, in their shifts, get the registration numbers of cars where they witness people inside throw their rubbish out the window, amongst other things. And I can't blame them for going out in twos! One reason is for evidence, and the other is for support if someone gets physical.

I HATE litter crime, and yes, they DO report all the other things you mention.

Nero Wrote:

"They ought to be doing other stuff, like reporting grafitti, getting overgrown trees and shrubs cut down, reporting dog dirt etc. There are other thigns they can do."

[KalamityKel]

Who exactly were these "people"? people in red coats... doesn't look particularly official :-S and where does the money go to?

[seanmlow]

Pechkam Rose - you think ?75 is what the fine should be for dropping a cigar then?

How do you justify this amount?

[BJL]

seanmlow Wrote:

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> Ok, ok people have got me all wrong.

>

> I agree with fining people for littering the

> streets. A ?10 spot fine, for example, would be a

> good deterrent.

A ?75 fine is a far better deterrent, though.

seanmlow Wrote:

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> However, ?75? My sister was fine ?60 for running a

> red light, which is potentially fatal?

>

> I think the punishment should fit the crime, don't

> you?

Absolutely - a ?60 fine for running a red light is a joke.

[PeckhamRose]

No idea.

Just saying I was at a council meeting where the environmental team discussed their work.

And that I hate litter.

Don't you? Clearly you thought it acceptable or you would not have done it.

No idea about how much to charge. I am not a councillor or council officer having to make that tough decision.

I am the crazy sort of person who will go up to kids I see on the street dropping stuff and literally, politely, whilst smiling and relating to them, ask them to pick it up. Sometimes they do and tell me they realise they were wrong. If they're in a group I chat with them. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. You can't tell the longer effect on discussing it. And sometimes they tell me to fcuk off and so that day I lost. So what.

But in your case a ?75 fine worked, didn't it. I hope!

I doubt anyone reading this will drop their cancerstickbutts or anything on the pavement, and we'll tell others in turn. The word will spread.

seanmlow Wrote:

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> Pechkam Rose - you think ?75 is what the fine

> should be for dropping a cigar then?

>

> How do you justify this amount?

[mockney piers]

It's not like there's been no warning. This was announced before the smoking ban came into force on the back of a 15% rise in Irish smoking litter following the ban there.

Count yourself lucky, over the Irish see it's a ?150-3000 on the spot fine (Mrs Mockney's sister put the fear of god into her when she stamped out a butt on our last trip out there).

[Nero]

PeckhamRose,

I am an anti-litter person too. I also ask peopel not to drop their crap and pick up bottles and cans and put them into the nearest recycling bin. But I do think that ?75 for littering is too much, and that running a red light is much more serious than dropping a cigar butt. And I think that moer would be done if the people sometimes at least went around on their own, with radio back up and a camera. Nero

[barrymarshall]

this is what I got from Southwark Council, who would presumably be responsible.

According to their website, the fine for littering is ?50.

Sean, might you have been had? What is the name of the company who "fined" you?

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/YourServices/environment/streetcleaning/litter.html

[PeckhamRose]

If that is the case then the answer to your original question is:

No.

?75 was not fair.

And thus I stand corrected.

[*Bob*]

Does anyone know if they're sending teams of RedJackets into Peckham and Camberwell to clamp down on littering?

[PeckhamRose]

Don't be naive.

They do.

I've witnessed it happening too.

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Does anyone know if they're sending teams of

> RedJackets into Peckham and Camberwell to clamp

> down on littering?

[KalamityKel]

Do you think it's litter in general or just cigar/fag butts?

[boosboss]

On the Southwark Website, dropping cigarette butts is qualified as dropping litter and the stated fine is ?50. So why are the Community Wardens issuing fines of ?75? Southwark Council/ Envirocrime

As it is Southwark Council issuing the fine, you may have some grounds on challenging the amount charged.

[Mark]

I think ?75 is rather harsh for dropping a cigar butt but I'm guessing you ain't going to do it again.

I rather like the idea of giving litter droppers the option 1) pay the fine or 2) give them some gloves and a high-vis jacket saying "I'm a litterer paying my dues" and spend 30 minutes picking up litter in the area. People could throw eggs at them too but then someone would have to clear them up so probably not worth it.

[boosboss]

Just found out that the fine is ?50 if paid within 10 days of issue or ?75 if left longer

[Siduhe]

boosboss Wrote:

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> On the Southwark Website, dropping cigarette butts

> is qualified as dropping litter and the stated

> fine is ?50. So why are the Community Wardens

> issuing fines of ?75? Southwark Council/

> Envirocrime

>

> As it is Southwark Council issuing the fine, you

> may have some grounds on challenging the amount

> charged.

The maximum possible fine increased from ?50 to ?75 on 1 April 2007, and was specifically intended to raise the fine to a level that people would see at out of all proportion to the offence committed, IIRC. The ?50 fine wasn't seen as having a sufficient effect. Looks like Southwark haven't updated the website.

[*Bob*]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> Don't be naive.

I don't think naivety comes into it.

I just wondered. I've never seen them, and seeing as the main bits of Peckham and Camberwell are full of litter, literally rolling past you like tumbleweed, it ought to be rich pickings. You'd think they'd blitz the place, seeing as it's such an important issue to Southwark.

I can just imagine the wardens deciding who to approach and dish-out a fine to. And who to pretend they never saw.