ED Ten Years From Now...?

[Catalyst]

Canavans/JFK's. Going to see a Detroit DJ play there tonight.

[Jeremy]

RosieH is right, Shoreditch is pretty awful on a Fri/Sat night these days, full of the type of people who would have been going drinking in Liecester Square a couple of years ago. I know that sounds snobbish, but...

Am I imagining this, or are a couple of people on this thread associating McDonalds and Wetherspoons with gentrification?

[Cyclemonkey]

No, i think that point was in reply to those concerned that further gentrification of ED would lead to more chains. It was pointed out that Peckham has loads of chains and cannot really be described as gentrified. Me, i like the variety of both. Happy to shop in the independents of ED and Nunhead. I also go to Khans for rice and spices, superdrug for bath stuff and Asda/sainsburys for other stuff (Asda has great Napolina pasta and tomato offers at the mo.

[m&m fairy]

Your missing my point - East Dulwich is going to become another Clapham with all the big high street chains because the rent is too big for small businesses to afford AND businesses round here aren't busy enough to pay that rent. I know that for a fact. East Dulwich is dead in July/August during any kids holidays when the middle classes take their darlings away for months on end. That is when you get a real taste of who lives in East Dulwich and who supports the local businesses. SO if you don't regularly shop and put your hands in your pockets throughout the year your gonna lose what you like in this area ie independent shops.

Oh and by the way I never served pastrami.

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You've confused yourself m&m fairy - if the middle

> classes are 'snobs' they wouldn't be shopping at

> Primark, eating at McD's and drinking at

> Wetherspoons would they?

>

> Am I right in saying you used to run Jack's cafe

> serving frittatas and pastrami (surely the snack

> du jour of the middle class snob)? Hating your

> customers and abusing them on social media

> probably won't help your business much?

[Huguenot]

Ah, the pastrami situation is intriguing. This lady was onvinced she had it in an Original Reuben sandwich: http://bighungryfamily.blogspot.sg/2011/05/jacks-cafe-pellatt-road-se22.html?m=1

The lady was incredibly nice and complimentary - even using the word 'scrummy' which must been infuriating? Perhaps removing pastrami from the menu and criticizing her lifestyle may have impacted upon your success?

I can understand your fear that rents are too high for ED shops, and time will tell - but if you are right about middle class darlings then they won't be shopping in McDonalds either.

I'm sorry your business didn't work out, but it does sound like you've created a group of people to blame and piled all your disgust into an unreasonable stereotype.

I'll be betting that even people who have lived in ED all their lives take their kids on holiday in the summer.

I'm not aware of any evidence of blow-in middle classes being responsible for the demise of ED, there's no evidence either that ED is actually in demise. In the boom period of the early 2000s everybody was blaming the middle classes for supporting small independent boutique shops.

Up until the late 90s it was a dump.

[LondonMix]

Yes exactly. Additionally areas that are more affluent (Clapham) and less affluent (Peckham) both have big chains already because one of the main issues determining if a chain can takeover a shop is the size of the retail units available.

Cyclemonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No, i think that point was in reply to those

> concerned that further gentrification of ED would

> lead to more chains. It was pointed out that

> Peckham has loads of chains and cannot really be

> described as gentrified. Me, i like the variety

> of both. Happy to shop in the independents of ED

> and Nunhead. I also go to Khans for rice and

> spices, superdrug for bath stuff and

> Asda/sainsburys for other stuff (Asda has great

> Napolina pasta and tomato offers at the mo.

[Catalyst]

I wouldnt count The Gowlett, the Victoria, the Montpelier, Bar Story as they may stay open til midnight on some evenings but they arent really the same as places in Shoreditch that are open until 3am and beyond. The Bussey building is used for a variety of different nights sporadically. Is the Peckham Palais open every weekend? There must be a reason why no-one has set up a nightclub in Peckham that is open every weekend with regular DJs. I love Peckham, but it has long way to go before it is anything like Shoreditch.

Far as I know there's club nights on at the Bussey every weekend.

While I agree it's got some way to go it's definitely primed to become a lot more lively. Maybe in todays terms Dalston is a better comparison than Shoreditch (soundsystems shoehorned into random venues).

Certainly that thing in Canavan's on Friday reinforced my feeling. A last minute party pulled together in 24hrs and promoted through social media and word of mouth pulls in 200 people on what's meant to the quietest weekend of the year? There's plenty of demand out there and I fully expect to see another club venue opening this year.

Although Peckham Palais seems to have shut down again which I can't understand as all the things I went to there last year were packed.

Video of Zed Bias playing there last September.

[Cyclemonkey]

Catalyst - i don't knwo why the Peckham Palais has shut down but it MIGHT (i say might as i genuinely don't know) be because of licensing issues rather than lack of punters - the Licensing Act 2003 gives police fairly strong powers to shut down licensed venues.

[Catalyst]

Quite possibly down to 'The Man'.

Hope to see it back in action again soon.

[m&m fairy]

Oh give over - I know the lady who wrote that and she was a fabulous customer who supported small businesses and I also know that 99% of our customers were wicked.

When did I say that our business didn't work out????

We gained 5 stars in Time out, 2011 came 4th for Best Coffee in London by London Lifestyle Awards and again in 2012 short listed into the top 10 alongside Kaffeine, Tapped & Packed.

We were very successful, just not big enough to fit everyone in. I sold our business lease "goodwill" with 100% profit and we are sorely missed by our customers.

This thread is NOT about Jacks .... Move on. We have!

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ah, the pastrami situation is intriguing. This

> lady was onvinced she had it in an Original Reuben

> sandwich:

> http://bighungryfamily.blogspot.sg/2011/05/jacks-c

> afe-pellatt-road-se22.html?m=1

>

> The lady was incredibly nice and complimentary -

> even using the word 'scrummy' which must been

> infuriating? Perhaps removing pastrami from the

> menu and criticizing her lifestyle may have

> impacted upon your success?

>

> I can understand your fear that rents are too high

> for ED shops, and time will tell - but if you are

> right about middle class darlings then they won't

> be shopping in McDonalds either.

>

> I'm sorry your business didn't work out, but it

> does sound like you've created a group of people

> to blame and piled all your disgust into an

> unreasonable stereotype.

>

> I'll be betting that even people who have lived in

> ED all their lives take their kids on holiday in

> the summer.

>

> I'm not aware of any evidence of blow-in middle

> classes being responsible for the demise of ED,

> there's no evidence either that ED is actually in

> demise. In the boom period of the early 2000s

> everybody was blaming the middle classes for

> supporting small independent boutique shops.

>

> Up until the late 90s it was a dump.

[Huguenot]

Sounds great m&m fairy - you're right, the thread isn't about Jack's it's about what ED looks like ten years from now, which you leveraged to make an unfounded, spiteful and unpleasantly prejudiced attack on a group of group of people to whom you owe your livelihood.

Best of luck with that!

I know what type of people ED would be better off without in ten years time ;-)

BTW, was your friendly customer lying about the pastrami then? Jeez these middle classes are such LIARS.

[m&m fairy]

stop being so spiteful why can't you be happy for businesses that do well rather than nit picking and continuing with this angst against what was a successful business, the forum can be a very hurtful place for new businesses I'm not surprised a lot close down its a poisoned chalice so give up on your tirade and move on, we've weathered this forum before and warned other new business's not to take the opinions of a few very bored very obstinate people for the views of many!

Oh and by the way it was home brined Salt Beef

Now go water your hanging baskets dear because I'm done here

[Huguenot]

I have nothing against your business, and I wish it all the best. I have not criticized your business at all.

As a small business owner I'm well aware how challenging it is, and make a point not to make it worse by insulting my customer base.

Home brined salt beef sounds marvellous.

I have a significant problem with your divisive and abusive class bigotry, and I drew attention to how inappropriate it was.

If you don't want to be criticized for your prejudices, then it may be wiser not to express them.

I'm not sure what the point is about the hanging baskets - is this a continuation of the theme?

[DulwichFox]

Q. How to start a 'Small Buisiness' ??

A. Take over a 'Thriving Business'

Run it baddly.

and watch it collapse.

Fox.

[Zebedee Tring]

Don't bother trying to argue with Huguenot, m&m fairy. He was spiteful to me on another thread. Take my advice - ignore him and with a bit of luck he'll go away and try to bully someone else.

[TillieTrotter]

He definitely won't go away!

[Huguenot]

Bizarre world where m&m fairy can toss unjustified insults at entire swathes of society, and I should be described as a bully for pulling her up on it. ;-)

[the-e-dealer]

Yes Cruel world!

[Huguenot]

Nah, not cruel - but I'm surprised that Zebedee Tring is attempting to grab the moral high ground by defending m&m fairy's unwarranted assault on hard working young families.

There is something of the night about such flexible 'principles'. Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows eh?

[Jessie]

Am with H on this one

[Zebedee Tring]

I'm not identifying myself with m&m fairy's views, Huguenot, so my political principles don't come into it. However, one of my main principles in life is that I can't stand bullies and never have been able to do so, and this is why I was defending m&m fairy. You're a bully because you wouldn't dare to make some of your inflammatory statements to the face of the person that you're attacking but you only do so on line.

"Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows eh?" How do you know whether I'm miserable or not? As it happens, it's not the best of times since my mother-in-law died over Christmas and a friend since schooldays died in the New Year. Aside from that, I'm perfectly well adjusted and happy.

[Huguenot]

What did I say that couldn't be said in public, ZT? Are you reading the same thread I am?

[LondonMix]

Sorry to hear about your loss ZT. I have to say, H can be too aggressive when making his points but in this thread I do think its tit-for-tat. M&M fairy has said some pretty unpleasant things so in my view if you can dish it, you should be able to take it.

[Zebedee Tring]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What did I say that couldn't be said in public,

> ZT? Are you reading the same thread I am?

What I said was that you wouldn't make some of your inflammatory (or indeed agressive) statements to the face of the person you're attacking (and that has included me in the past), not that you wouldn't say these things in public - that's very different. The reaction that you might receive from the person you're attacking might not be something that you would appreciate (to put it very euphemistically).

[Huguenot]

I'm afraid that there's absolutely nothing on here that I wouldn't say to you or anyone else face to face ZT. Neither do I think it would cause affront to any ordinary mortal, they would have to have lead a terribly sheltered life.

What I can't imagine is what you are reading on here, but it is clearly not what is written down. Try reading it again.