ED Ten Years From Now...?

[Zebedee Tring]

Clearly, I should have put the words "irony alert" at the end of my post. I had my tongue firmly in my cheek, because I am concerned that so many threads on this Forum seem to descend into class warfare - and this is only the latest one.

In case anyone is still confused, IMHO Iceland is as capitalist an organisation as M&S and I don't kid myself otherwise.

[Otta]

What Jeremy said.

Personally I hope there is a KFC, but not if it puts Favourite out of business!

In all seriousness though, Green & Blue is closing, and one of the reasons was greedy landlords. I've said this elsewhere, but to me it looks like a vicious circle. Place gets "gentrified" (I hate that word), lots of nice (and expensive) little independents open. More and more people hear about it, prices go up and up, area gets written about in th press, prices continue to rise. Landlords see it as a chance to squeeze some more money out of people, until the only businesses that can afford it are the very businesses that the people don't want.

My absolutely honest opinion is that Lordship Lane is a bit crap anyway, and I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of big name shops there (as well as some indies).

[poppet27]

Interesting as I observe as a fairly new resident, having moved from SW London in Summer last year. I feel a stronger sense of community (and no, I don't include the antagonist tw@s that sometimes populate this forum), a slightly older demographic than the Clapham and Balham crowd and feels more suburban.

[jrpfinch]

I think there are a lot of tongue in cheek posts on this thread including possibly the OP.

I live on the border of ED and Camberwell. I reckon Camberwell is the more natural destination for the Clapham exodus. It's pretty similar to pre-gentrification Clapham. That's not to say ED will not improve too. I just think it's a little more suburban. Perhaps more of a Wandsworth/Balham exodus destination.

[Santerme]

RockyZool Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Fairly curious response there Santerme.

>

> Not entire surely that my hope for ED to stay on

> its current course of balancing gentrification

> whilst enhancing its a truly independent feel,

> should be quite such an abhorrent concept for

> you.

>

> Replacing of filthy fried chicken shops, shabby

> supermarkets and downbeat pubs by rather more

> savoury establishments is a positive for all

> current and prospective residents. Though I'm sure

> this would be construed by you as evidence of my

> painfully desperate social climbing faux snobbery,

> frankly, ED is fast becoming so very popular and

> successful exactly because it stands as an island

> set apart from its less than inspiring and

> desirable (not to mention less safe) immediate

> environs.

>

> Standing ready to receive a vociferous response.

Actually the phrase 'balancing gentrification' induced a rib tickling giggle.

So thanks for that anyway, at least.

[????]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In case anyone else is confused, Iceland is not

> and never has been a worker's cooperative, and

> it's been in more leveraged buyouts than M&S has

> prawn sandwiches.

>

> Its founder and chairman was even charged with

> insider trading after offloading masses of shares

> before declaring a profits warning.

>

> One time CEO of Iceland Stuart Rose only stepped

> down a year ago from Chairman of... M&S!

oh dear huge a huge Whooooosh....you lost your irony detector?

[Huguenot]

No, but maybe I was remiss in thinking other people might.

[LondonMix]

I don't think lots of chains will open up. Some will of course whenever a large enough retail unit becomes available but most of the shops in ED are far too small to accommodate the necessary footprint virtually all chains need. It doesn't matter how gentrified the area becomes, the space contraint won't change unless planning rules change to allow much larger retail units to be developed.

As this entire part of South London becomes more affluent, chains are much more likely (to continue) to operate in Peckham as the retail units are appropriate for that use. Chains are not a rich / poor thing. In poorer areas, cheap chains open, in more affluent areas, chains that target a richer demographic will open. McDonalds, KFC, Primark etc are all already on Rye Lane.

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What Jeremy said.

>

> Personally I hope there is a KFC, but not if it

> puts Favourite out of business!

>

> In all seriousness though, Green & Blue is

> closing, and one of the reasons was greedy

> landlords. I've said this elsewhere, but to me it

> looks like a vicious circle. Place gets

> "gentrified" (I hate that word), lots of nice (and

> expensive) little independents open. More and more

> people hear about it, prices go up and up, area

> gets written about in th press, prices continue to

> rise. Landlords see it as a chance to squeeze some

> more money out of people, until the only

> businesses that can afford it are the very

> businesses that the people don't want.

>

> My absolutely honest opinion is that Lordship Lane

> is a bit crap anyway, and I wouldn't mind seeing a

> couple of big name shops there (as well as some

> indies).

[jimbo1964]

'As this entire part of South London becomes more affluent, chains are much more likely (to continue) to operate in Peckham as the retail units are appropriate for that use. Chains are not a rich / poor thing. In poorer areas, cheap chains open, in more affluent areas, chains that target a richer demographic will open. McDonalds, KFC, Primark etc are all already on Rye Lane.'

I can see some big changes to Rye Lane in the next few years now that it's so well connected.

[LondonMix]

Yes, the new links and also the restoration of Peckham Rye station over the next couple of years will have a dramatic impact on the feel of Rye Lane. They will be clearing away all of the small shops near the entrance of the station to reopen the rather grand Victorian courtyard that fronts the station?the shops are currently being bought out. Also the old grand waiting room which has been closed off with the windows bricked off is being restored and will reopened. If nothing else, some of the true architectural beauty of Rye Lane will be revealed.

[Catalyst]

Peckham is undergoing the sort of changes that happened in Shoreditch/Hoxton in the mid-90's (getting younger, whiter and hipper). The train link is only going to accelerate that. Plenty of creatives are being priced out of the east end and see Peckham as an attractive alternative.

Frank's is going to be an even bigger road block this summer. The industrial units around Copeland Road are prime candidates to open another performance space/night club/venue and the council have already granted one off licenses for events around there.

If the council are committed to growing the night-time economy, as they've indicated they are, it will be a pretty fun place (for a while).

[Cyclemonkey]

Interesting thoughts. I definitely think SE15 is on the up. I've lived in and around Peckham for 10 years or so and it has been slowly changing all that time but it really has begun to accelerate now and the ELL extension will only make it faster.

This could bring good and bad things. I woudl be lying if i wasn't fond of the newer pubs and shops in Bellenden Road, i also enjoy Franks in the Summer and nights at the Bussey Building. Plans to clean up Rye lane are excitign as there is agood architecture underneth the years of grime and neglect. However gentrification comes at a price and last summers riots already show how marginalised and excluded many households in Peckham are. I'm on an ok wage but those gleeful articles recently in the Standard about Peckhams rising rents and houseprices strike fear into my heart - after 4 years with no pay rise and my parter looking for work we will not be able to bear it if our landlord decides to take advantage of Peckhams increasing desirability and increases our rent.

also remember Peckham is not like Shoreditch in the 1980s and 1990s, although it has suffered it was not almost completely abondoned by communities in the way that Shoreditch was - i remember walking through Shoreditchin the 1990s and there was nothing - no chain stores, no food shops, no banks, no local authoirty services, derelict buildings and abondoned pubs - Peckham has never got that bad. We also have an exisitingg mixed community, families who live very close to Rye lane, thriveing local businesses so i'm not sure that an all night free for all night life will develop in the same way it did in Shoreditch in the 1990s

[pexprincess]

Are there any places in Peckham with a late night license (post 11pm) that have stayed open for more than six months?

[Cyclemonkey]

Well yes - i think a few of the pubs around Bellenden road have a late license at the weekend - The Gowlett, the Victoria, the Montpelier, Bar Story. The old Nunshead in Nunhead (still SE15) is open late at the weekends.

The Bussey Building has been going strong for a couple of years now and is reguklarly open until the small hours at weekends.

The Peckham Palais is up and running again with late parties often until the small hours.

Any more?

[LondonMix]

Totally agree. I live in East Dulwich but commute via Peckham and all the shops people fear will come to ED due to gentrification have been on Rye Lane for ages. I mentioned Primark but Clarks, Super Drug and WH Smith plus a large assortment of international fast food chains have been on Rye Lane are all there too (again because of the appropriate sized retail units). Peckham / Rye Lane has never been totally abandoned.

Cyclemonkey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> also remember Peckham is not like Shoreditch in

> the 1980s and 1990s, although it has suffered it

> was not almost completely abondoned by communities

> in the way that Shoreditch was - i remember

> walking through Shoreditchin the 1990s and there

> was nothing - no chain stores, no food shops, no

> banks, no local authoirty services, derelict

> buildings and abondoned pubs - Peckham has never

> got that bad. We also have an exisitingg mixed

> community, families who live very close to Rye

> lane, thriveing local businesses so i'm not sure

> that an all night free for all night life will

> develop in the same way it did in Shoreditch in

> the 1990s

[the-e-dealer]

And the funny thing is with all those shops Peckham Rye is NOT Gentrified!

[LondonMix]

Exactly! The idea there is a specific link between gentrification and chains is totally incorrect.

With that said, Peckham already has more than most people realise and I do think the regeneration works will be positive for this entire part of South London.

[pexprincess]

I wouldnt count The Gowlett, the Victoria, the Montpelier, Bar Story as they may stay open til midnight on some evenings but they arent really the same as places in Shoreditch that are open until 3am and beyond. The Bussey building is used for a variety of different nights sporadically. Is the Peckham Palais open every weekend? There must be a reason why no-one has set up a nightclub in Peckham that is open every weekend with regular DJs. I love Peckham, but it has long way to go before it is anything like Shoreditch.

[RosieH]

Thank god! Shoreditch is hideous of an evening these days, and no one I know who lives there goes out there at night.

Leaving the boyfriend's house in the morning, I regularly have to step over a pile of blow-ins' vomit - it's more like Lordship Lane than Peckham - hurrah that Peckham is unlikely to go the same way.

[Cyclemonkey]

@pexprincess - i see what you mean! no Peckham is not like Shoreditch and will never be so i think because of the fact it has a very established and thriving business and residential community that will resist it becommigna 24 hour party place like Shoreditch - i think this is a very good thing - i would not like Peckham to become like Shoreditch at all - afterall it is our homes not a theme park for hipsters desperate for the next trendy place to have a night out - i think i am happy with what we have now - maybe with a bit of cleaning up around Rye lane - it is sad to see so many buildings poorly used when people are desperate for affordable homes/affordable commercial premises.

Also i won't go into too much detail ona public forum but i worked with Hackney council in a professional capacity a few years back and there are quite a few reasons why Shoreditch developed like it did and so rapidly - not many of them legal!

[Huguenot]

Do tell Cyclemonkey - that's an interesting story if illegal traders contributed to urban renewal?

[LadyDeliah]

Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but have a look at this before you make any 10 year predictions about anything :-)

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIE5M.dQFkcAllT7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBvbGgza2Q0BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjExNg--?p=crisis+of+civilization&vid=aae3741988b1ff883a73e1d3a9d546d5&l=&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.4983730540445773%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvimeo.com%2F34752785&tit=The+Crisis+of+Civilization%3A+Full+Film&c=2&sigr=10p469imp&&tt=b

This one is pretty good too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WBiTnBwSWc

Sit back and enjoy the ride, lol.

[StraferJack]

So on the one hand you are telling bipolar people to hang on in there, one step at a time, things get better, yadda yadda

On the other hand...

[Cyclemonkey]

@hugunot nothing too scandalous really! Let's just say some of the later night places in the earlier days sometimes didn't have the appropriate permissions. The council struggled to keep up with the pace of change and there was a period where Shoreditch had a policing and licencing regime more aimed at a residential area rather than a late night destination. Things are very different now of course and quite rightly so.

[LadyDeliah]

Lol, yeh we have to keep our wits about us to cope with the impending doom :-)

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So on the one hand you are telling bipolar people

> to hang on in there, one step at a time, things

> get better, yadda yadda

>

> On the other hand...