Nurse that took hoax call

[Huguenot]

It's all for the greater good you know rd.

Greater love hath no man than this etc. :D

[LondonMix]

Yes, that would be negligent homicide (a much reduced form of sentence) and would be a criminal offence because it is a foreseeable consequence of that action.

Pulling a prank of this nature does not have suicide as a foreseeable consequence by any stretch of the imagination. Based on your logic, whenever anyone committed suicide an investigation would need to be launched and anyone who may be deemed to have made that person unhappy in anyway should be arrested. Do you hear how insane that sounds! Can you imagine a world that operated this way?

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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> Somebody gets in car and drives along quite

> safely, they answer their mobile phone, they run

> somebody over.

>

> Of course they didnt mean to run the person over,

> they didnt leave the house intending to harm

> anybody. However their actions in answering the

> phone contributed to them hurting somebody.

> Therefore there is jeopardy.

>

> This is not a "draconian eye for eye nonsense",

> dont be simplistic. This is people being

> responsible for the impact of what they do.

>

> As Quids notes, phoning a Hospital to seek

> information about a Patient is wrong. That it then

> may have led, in part, to a suicide, should be

> investigated and if it is found to have a causal

> link to the death, there is jeopardy.

>

> I do not think that they are entirely culpable, I

> think that they may be partly culpable because

> their prank and its broadcasting was bullying.

[edcam]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Pulling a prank of this nature does not have

> suicide as a foreseeable consequence by any

> stretch of the imagination. Based on your logic,

> whenever anyone committed suicide an investigation

> would need to be launched and anyone who may be

> deemed to have made that person unhappy in anyway

> should be arrested. Do you hear how insane that

> sounds! Can you imagine a world that operated

> this way?

>

>> --------------------------------------------------

>

I'm inclined to agree. It's tragic that anyone is in a fragile enough state to commit suicide but I don't think it's fair to actually blame these DJs for her death.

They are guilty of being stupid/juvenile/having a very poor sense of humour but their producer and the radio station are as culpable in that as they are.

I also agree that the training and protocols in place at the hospital are obviosly shockingly bad (especially considering the price attached to being a patient there.) As someone else said, this would be highly unlikely to happen in an NHS hospital.

The fact is that the poor nurse must have had other issues that we may never know about, as on its own, this ridiculous prank can't have been the sole contributing factor.

[Otta]

The "prank" was inappropriate, and not funny. And they should have thought about what it means to call a hospital trying to get info about a patient.

I'm not so sure they should have thought about whether the person answering the phone would have mental health issues, and kill themselves as a result.

If I am in a heated argument with someone and I say "just fuck off, you're not worth the air you breath, why don't you do us all a favour and kill yourself"*. And then they go and kill themselves, I I to blame for that death?

* I'm not actually in the habit of getting in to heated arguments and advising people to end it all.

[the-e-dealer]

Yes.

[Otta]

Riiight, so if I tell you to sell your house and invest everything in RBS Shares, am I to blame for you losing everything, or should you take some responsibility for yourself.

[the-e-dealer]

Are you a financial adviser?

[Otta]

I guess what I am saying is that you can't blame anyone for a suicide. The person who kills themselves makes a decision to do that. There may be factors that contribute, and the hoax call may have been a factor in this case (or for all we know she was going to do it that day anyway).

So, at most, the DJ's actions were a contributing factor to this woman's decision to end her life. The DJs are not responsible for the woman's death.

[Otta]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

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> Are you a financial adviser?

No, but I'm also not qualified to advise people to end their lives.

[edcam]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> the-e-dealer Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Are you a financial adviser?

>

>

> No, but I'm also not qualified to advise people to

> end their lives.

I think you're as qualified as anyone Otta.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I agree with Otta's more finessed view - that the DJs actions may have had contributed something to the Nurses suicide, but they are not responsible for her death.

A prank call to a hospital is not appropriate, asking for Patient information in that way is not appropriate, broadcasting the results is not appropriate.

I am amazed that the Hospital does not have better security protocols.

[Ridgley]

This is a tragic thing that has happen to the nurse involved in all this, but I think someone has to take reasonability for this not her suicide as we do not know what was going in her mind and this was another contributing factor. The DJ?S have to take some sort of reasonability and so does the hospital for their lack of security in this

I Always thought if the queen wanted to speak to someone by phone doesn?t she have armies of private secretaries that would have called on her behalf.

[Otta]

I suspect the Queen does make some calls herself if it's about close family.

I don't think the DJs ever actually expected for the call to go that far. From what I can tell (and yes I could be wrong) they were probably looking to get a laugh out of a receptionist, I doubt they ever thought they'd get as far as a nurse directly responsible for the patient's care.

[the-e-dealer]

They said they expected to be hung up on within 30 seconds with their silly voices and sound effects.

[Marmora Man]

Edcam wrote: "I also agree that the training and protocols in place at the hospital are obviosly shockingly bad (especially considering the price attached to being a patient there.) As someone else said, this would be highly unlikely to happen in an NHS hospital."

Is this based on a detailed knowledge of the independent healthcare sector and healthcare in general or some vague prejudice against private healthcare?

1. The training and protocols at King Edwards are of a high standard - I was involved in a project that looked very closely at the hospital less than a year ago.

2. No amount of training, protocols or policies can preclude human error - which is essentially how the two nurses concerned let slip the confidential information - something that would not have happened but for the poorly judged actions of the DJs.

3. To cite the NHS as an example of good management where mistakes are not made is risible - North Staffs, Pembury and countless other NHS hospitals have over many decades demonstrated that the NHS is not immune to slack management, poor levels of care, errors and mistakes. Only last week the Chief Nursing Officer was calling for more care and compassion from NHS nurses.

Finally altho an independent hospital King Edwards is, in fact, less costly than the majority of other independent hospitals in London - offering free and discounted services to serving and retired military personnel as well as general acute services to al. Try the HCA / BMI or Spire groups for premium pricing.

[edcam]

Someone has an axe to grind!

[StraferJack]

without favouring private or NHS care either way, it's fairly safe to assume that if this "lapse" had happened at an NHS hospital, the NHS would be targetted in a way this hospital isn't

[Otta]

Absolutely, they'd have been slaughtered!

[Marmora Man]

edcam Wrote:

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> Someone has an axe to grind!

No - just trying to correct some ill informed speculation.

[red devil]

If there was a god, it would've been an NHS hospital and BBC djs, and everyone would've ended up eating themselves...

[Lowlander]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Edcam wrote: "I also agree that the training and

> protocols in place at the hospital are obviosly

> shockingly bad (especially considering the price

> attached to being a patient there.) As someone

> else said, this would be highly unlikely to happen

> in an NHS hospital."

>

> Is this based on a detailed knowledge of the

> independent healthcare sector and healthcare in

> general or some vague prejudice against private

> healthcare?

>

> 1. The training and protocols at King Edwards are

> of a high standard - I was involved in a project

> that looked very closely at the hospital less than

> a year ago.

>

> 2. No amount of training, protocols or policies

> can preclude human error - which is essentially

> how the two nurses concerned let slip the

> confidential information - something that would

> not have happened but for the poorly judged

> actions of the DJs.

>

> 3. To cite the NHS as an example of good

> management where mistakes are not made is risible

> - North Staffs, Pembury and countless other NHS

> hospitals have over many decades demonstrated that

> the NHS is not immune to slack management, poor

> levels of care, errors and mistakes. Only last

> week the Chief Nursing Officer was calling for

> more care and compassion from NHS nurses.

>

> Finally altho an independent hospital King Edwards

> is, in fact, less costly than the majority of

> other independent hospitals in London - offering

> free and discounted services to serving and

> retired military personnel as well as general

> acute services to al. Try the HCA / BMI or Spire

> groups for premium pricing.

This is a member of the Royal Family we're talking about, not Joe Public.

This could only have happened because no-one trained the staff how to answer the phone. In light of recent phone hacking scandals this is unacceptable.

The responsibility lies with hospital management. They've failed both their staff and their patients in this case.

Imagine a couple of teenagers did the same thing and posted it on YouTube. Who would you be blaming then?

[Huguenot]

No, lowlander, that's just not reasonable. This is an unfortunate tragedy, but nowhere near grounds for a unilateral and poorly informed attack on the hospital. You have no idea of their training regime.

I don't know if you've ever been involved with training, or large public facing institutions, but training people doesn't make people do the right things all the time. People just make mistakes.

I'm not sure what the hypothetical story about teenagers is trying to prove?

[Lowlander]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> No, lowlander, that's just not reasonable. This is

> an unfortunate tragedy, but nowhere near grounds

> for a unilateral and poorly informed attack on the

> hospital. You have no idea of their training

> regime.

>

> I don't know if you've ever been involved with

> training, or large public facing institutions, but

> training people doesn't make people do the right

> things all the time. People just make mistakes.

>

> I'm not sure what the hypothetical story about

> teenagers is trying to prove?

Agreed it's a tragedy. I've been extensively involved in information security at a number of large organisations.

I'm sure it's a fine medical institution, and I'm not questioning that side.

What I find extraordinary to believe is that:

(a) there is a a direct line number, publicly available, which got them through to staff on the ward. Especially given that a hospital of such high standing should receive many high-profile patients who would wish a great degree of confidentiality, and who would wish the hospital to respect that.

(b) that the staff were not trained in taking direct phone calls (all calls should be routed through a reception desk or duty manager). Even if nurse 1 made a human error, nurse 2 should have checked where the call was coming from.

© that no-one envisaged (as mentioned before, especially in light of the phone hacking scandal) people phoning up.

This wasn't a sophisticated attempt to gain access. This was a stupid prank which would have blown over within 24 hours had it not ended in tragedy.

Lastly I don't understand why you're questioning my question without answering it first.

[Jeremy]

Some people mentioned that confidential information was given obtained. As far as I can see, the only questions which were asked were "how is she", and "when did William leave". To which the answers were essentially "much better now", and "last night".

[????]

'much better now' is confidential patient information in the same way that 'she's dead' would have been