Nurse that took hoax call

[LondonMix]

I see your point that its the individual nurse (who was tricked and now has tragically died) rather than the institution. However, such a breach of medical confidentiality in the US would result in any practitioner losing their license. People take such breaches very seriously and given that this nurse, if we are to believe the hospital, was not even reprimanded, I think that shows some institutional failing. That the DJs shouldn't have done it is clear but that would be like dismissing a failing by the police by saying the criminals should not have broken the law. Clearly people will always try to access confidential medical information (on spouses / children etc). We must trust that the medical establishment will protect us from such breaches of privacy.

[Loz]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> However, I come back to my earlier point. It was the Australian DJs that are responsible.

I disagree strongly. 'Responsibility' means that they should have known that their actions could have had such a traumatic effect - and there is no way they could have known that. Prank calls have been around for ages. This one was not bullying or vicious. It was a silly prank that seemingly (as it has yet to be confirmed) turned out to have a totally unforeseeable tragedy come in its wake.

Sometimes, no one is responsible. This seems to be such a time.

[StraferJack]

What loz said

Put it this way. In the days between the phone call and the death was there an outpouring of concern for the woman? No. There wasn't. Because why would there be. She fell victim to a prank. That is the beginning and end of it as far as the rest of us should be concerned

What happens to her subsequently is the result of various factors, which we are unlikely to ever be privy to

Sometimes there isn't someone to blame. We seem to find it hard to accept that sometimes

[ratty]

No one is to blame. It is a sad, sad sad incident that was sparked by some 21st century media arseholeness, designed to amuse and titillate the lowest common denominator; but that does not make the DJs to blame.

So sad about this. So near to Xmas. RIP!

[Michael Palaeologus]

The Dj's have some responsibility in this.

To rather loftily say that "nobody is to blame" rather ignores the fact that people have brains, they think and so can identify what is or is not an appropriate thing to do.

A tree, in a storm, falling and killing somebody is not to blame.

Phoning a hospital, seeking medical information about a sick patient which you have no right to, is not appropriate in any circumstances. In this case, it pushed one of the victim's of their prank over the edge. That she was possibly close to the edge beforehand is not relevant. They were not to know, but they should not have made the call in the first place.

Their actions led, in part, to the suicide of somebody else. They have that to answer for.

[nashoi]

"Their actions led, in part, to the suicide of somebody else."

How do you know this?

[alice]

I was stating my opinion just like you

[Loz]

Here's a recording of the call. Jacintha Saldanha, the nurse in question, is involved from 1:16 to 1:26. In other words, hardly at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MjPPMLlZqo

[civilservant]

ratty Wrote:

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> No one is to blame. It is a sad, sad sad incident

> that was sparked by some 21st century media

> arseholeness, designed to amuse and titillate the

> lowest common denominator; but that does not make

> the DJs to blame.

Pranking is all about public humiliation. Just because it's the staple of cheap telly and everyone laughs at it doesn't make it alright.

There wouldn't be arseholeness if the media didn't think that we weren't all going to say 'good on yer mate' or whatever for their attempts to debunk a sacred cow like the royal family. It's a lot like everyone getting on their high horse about phone-hacking when the whole reason for hacking was to give us our daily dose of salacious gossip.

Of course we all laughed when we first heard about this prank. Did any of us think about the collateral damage? Doubtful.

So, if even the kind of slebs who make sex tapes claim to feel violated when these get passed around, how much more difficult for this nurse, by all accounts a quiet and dedicated young woman from a more reticent culture, to cope with 21st century norms of shamelessness?

[srisky]

Just to clarify the point about breaching confidentiality - Kate Middleton may well have given permission for certain information about her condition to be passed on to certain people. If the staff only divulged information according to her explicit wishes then they haven't breached confidentiality. Whether they followed protocol on how to identify the caller is a different matter.

Attempting to obtain confidential medical information under false pretence is beyond a prank regardless of the subsequent turn of events.

[Gidget]

Just heard an interview with Keith Vaz about this. He said he met with the family was told that she had not confided in any of them. For her not to confide in her husband seems unusual to me. Their religion is Catholic.

[Huguenot]

Not sure what their religion has got to do with this?

[StraferJack]

sorry MP but there is a wicth hunt going on, and the fact that the subject of that witch hunt appear to be fairly odious is neither here nor there

I repeat - on the back of the call, I didn't hear a single person say "put that nurse on watch as she may be a danger to herself - we don't know what's going on in here life so best be careful"

And the reason they didn't do that is because it was just a hoax call - of which we have experienced many many many. People tend to kill themselves for all sorts of reasons (including be the subject of witch hunts and death threats on social media, as the 2 djs are) but victim of a prank call - not so much

"Phoning a hospital, seeking medical information about a sick patient which you have no right to, is not appropriate in any circumstances. In this case, it pushed one of the victim's of their prank over the edge. That she was possibly close to the edge beforehand is not relevant. They were not to know, but they should not have made the call in the first place.

Their actions led, in part, to the suicide of somebody else. They have that to answer for."

I suspect the phone call wasn't to seek medical information - it was to see "how far they could go before being caught" - I base that suspicion on having "a brain" and seeing many a prank call develop. How do you stop radio stations making prank calls, globally? Do you tell djs, "don't make a prank call, ever" (personally, I'd be happy to never hear a prank call again - tedious business - but forbidding them seems OTT)

Besides, the whole incident seemed to upset nobody. The royals laughed it off, why would the woman take it so seriously. You can't legislate for that

Saying that people have "a brain" and therefore shouldn't have made the call only works if you think that, before setting up a prank, someone might kill themselves on the back it. And why would you have though that last week?

[LondonMix]

Good point and agree entirely.

srisky Wrote:

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> Just to clarify the point about breaching

> confidentiality - Kate Middleton may well have

> given permission for certain information about her

> condition to be passed on to certain people. If

> the staff only divulged information according to

> her explicit wishes then they haven't breached

> confidentiality. Whether they followed protocol on

> how to identify the caller is a different matter.

>

>

> Attempting to obtain confidential medical

> information under false pretence is beyond a prank

> regardless of the subsequent turn of events.

[Huguenot]

I think the measure of 'negligence' involved in a prank call would be calculated according to that which a 'reasonable person' might have been able to predict.

Probably the only thing that a reasonable person would have been able to predict about this would be that the recipients of the call would be publically humiliated, but not that it would result in suicide.

In that sense the DJs could only be called to task for the malign desire to publically humiliate members of the nursing profession for other people's entertainment.

However, I totally agree with MM and MP's view that it would be extraordinary to claim that this incident was anything but the 'fault' of the pranksters. If you play on railway lines sooner or later you'll get hit by a train, and it isn't the train's fault. These pranksters were playing with fire once they thought it was fun to destroy people's confidence and sense of pride just for a laugh.

I just don't get 'pranks'. I received one myself at a well known media company. I wasn't in the least angry about it (and use it as a case study at conferences) but I don't really understand why a complete stranger who knows nothing about myself or my hardworking colleagues would go out of their way to make us look stupid.

[StraferJack]

have I missed the piece where they were trying to "obtain confidential medical information" in the call?

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/transcript-djs-prank-call-london-nurse-article-1.1215498

it's hardly asking for a fax of the records is it?

[StraferJack]

So where was the uproar about the prank before the nurses death?

[*Bob*]

I can see I'm going to have to keep the radio and tv switched off for the next few days - hopefully I can miss some of the unqualified righteous indignation freakshow reaction from certain sections of the population.. again.

What is it with people who spend 99.99999% of their time filtering news of real importance and significance through one ear and out the other without batting an eyelid but who leap to their feet, incandescent with rage over a would-be harmless nothing turned sad misfortune which no-one could have predicted?

This sort of thing is becoming like a new 21st-century medical condition.

[Michael Palaeologus]

The DJs phone a hospital (full of sick people), record the resulting conversation and then broacast that recording for general public ridicule, this without the permission of those they recorded.

Bullying, plain and simple. We condemn and act against bullying in the playgound, yet adult bullying that results in a suicide, well, nobody is to blame.

The DJs are responsible for the results of their actions. That is in the nature of being an adult, we are responsible for the results of our actions.

There was no negative reaction before the nurse's suicide because there nothing to negatively react to, at least as far as the general public was aware of. The anguish caused did not become clear until the suicide.

There is no way of recording how many people, when they first heard of the prank, thought "what a pair of @rseholes", I did, but this was little reported in the media.

The news of the suicide caused people to understand the ramifications of the "prank" and so condemn the perpetrators.

The anguish of the DJs as they tried to justify themselves in the recent Australian TV interview has to be seen in the context of their bullying behaviour. Of course they are anguished, they are watching the media careers disappearing down the plug-hole.

Lets save our sympathy for those who deserve it.

[Huguenot]

Well before the nurse's death the only thing you could say was 'it's not very nice and one of these days it could go wrong' - which isn't exactly front page news.

After this tragedy, it spurs people to recognise otherwise ill-defined anxieties that were actually rooted in a real threat.

[Huguenot]

X-post

[StraferJack]

"There is no way of recording how many people, when they first heard of the prank, thought "what a pair of @rseholes", I did, but this was little reported in the media. "

Given how many people on here post a lot of what they think, I can measure the EDF quotient - nil. But thinking someone is an arsehole is not the same as thinking "ooh that's a bit dangerous - she might kill herself because of their arseholery"

"The DJs phone a hospital (full of sick people), record the resulting conversation and then broacast that recording for general public ridicule, this without the permission of those they recorded. "

not sure where the "full of sick people" comes into it - they weren't dragged from their beds to be humiliated on air. Other than that, what you describe is the very nature of prank calls. Do I think it's bullying - of a kind yeah probably. But what do you want to do - ban all prank calls from ever happening?

I'm not trying to defend prank calls - I'm just saying it's unlikey they cause someone to kill themselves. Even if it's a trigger event, what does that even mean - do you go around stopping any trigger event from happening? And how would you do that exactly

[Gidget]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Not sure what their religion has got to do with

> this?

I mentioned the religion because Keith Vaz did. Quite often Catholics go and see their priest, or another priest if the one they usually see isn't available, if they are upset about something, especially if they are feeling suicidal.

[LondonMix]

Anything about her medical condition or treatment qualifies. The appropriate response is, ?I cannot discuss her medical condition with you (unless she has given the hospital express permission to do so with specifically named people).? It's an entirely black and white issue. That is the only response I would ever expect my doctor / nurse to provide to anyone without my permission.

Regarding the rest of this circus, while the prank was nasty and puerile, I think the nurse?s suicide was in no way a foreseeable consequence. If it does change the public?s attitude about the appropriateness of these kinds of pranks, that at least will be something though.

StraferJack Wrote:

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> have I missed the piece where they were trying to

> "obtain confidential medical information" in the

> call?

>

> http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/tr

> anscript-djs-prank-call-london-nurse-article-1.121

> 5498

>

> it's hardly asking for a fax of the records is it?

[Jessie]

We have no idea what was going on in this woman's personal life; we have no idea what happened behind the scenes. I feel sorry and sad for all involved.