Lordship Lane Police Station

[UncleBen]

Yes Callie, thats the one (forgot Upland Rd starts there). It was the police stn before the one on LL was built. It has a largeish rear yard and is/was still in use/ownership by the Met. There is a thread somewhere about it. I wonder why our local councillors are silent about this building rather than promoting a hospital site for a cop shop?

[Louisa]

I remember when that was the police station. Beautiful building inside and ample parking out the back for police cars.

Louisa.

[rch]

Here's an old link to the Crystal Palace Police Station, I've heard it's definitely been sold now:-

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-34913017.html

Councillors weren't silent on this at all, it was our first choice as an alternative to the current station, but it got boarded up and sold off before we could even launch a campaign.

We fought hard to retain the hospital site for medical use, as well... you all probably don't remember the Save the Onions campaign I launched to stop the demolition of the east wing with the famous onion domes when I was first elected in 2006. But the problem is that councillors are actually very low down on the decision-making totem pole, which makes it very difficult for us to influence high-level decisions.

There is currently a consultation out by the PCT which will determine how much of the site will need to be retained for medical use. We are anticipating that only a portion of the site will be needed, so we are trying our best to retain a community use for at least half the site in the event that the site will be put up for sale. If half the site is developed for much-needed housing, then this will create a need for more community facilities as the demographic of East Dulwich will shift.

The Gatehouse that we are proposing for a Dulwich Patrol Base is currently being used by the hospital's own security guards, so a police base won't impinge on any medical use of the site... in fact, the consolidation of the police and the security guards by the front gate will actually strengthen a presence on what is now virtually a brown field site until the hospital site is redeveloped.

[LondonMix]

It is the one I remembered then. I remember they were asking 700k-800k for it or something like that. Does anyone know specifically what will become of it? Is there still a chance to use part of the property by agreeing to help the developer with change of use more generally?

[EDOldie]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/realpoliceboxes/8136170887/in/photostream

This thread reminded me of this.

[ianr]

Robin Crookshank Hilton wrote:

> There is currently a consultation out by the PCT which will determine how much of the site will need to be retained for medical use.

Which PCT I think no longer exists as of yesterday. http://www.webarchive.org.uk/ukwa/collection/128712710/page/1

Do we have a reference for its particular replacement body or bodies? Can we assume that all its papers, including archives, and ongoing activities have been automatically inherited?

[UncleBen]

rch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

rch Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Councillors weren't silent on this at all, it was

> our first choice as an alternative to the current

> station, but it got boarded up and sold off before

> we could even launch a campaign.

>

> We fought hard to retain the hospital site for

> medical use, as well... you all probably don't

> remember the Save the Onions campaign I launched

> to stop the demolition of the east wing with the

> famous onion domes when I was first elected in

> 2006. But the problem is that councillors are

> actually very low down on the decision-making

> totem pole, which makes it very difficult for us

> to influence high-level decisions.

Thats funny, my memory tells me that the old police station was partially in use for ages before it was boarded up. Even then the rear of the premises was being used by the Met. Plenty of time to start a campaign similar to the CPZ campaign, Waitrose/M&S campaign, primary school campaign etc. I think it just serves your purpose to remove Dulwich hospital for your own political ends. Were you a Tory or a Libdem back then i can't remember?! Didn't you want an art gallery at the hospital rch? Anyway, the Met could always buy the 'old' station with the monies from the sale of the LL station . . .

[rch]

Hi ianr... the new set-up is now functioning as the NHS Southwark Clinical Commissioning Group, the site wasn't working yesterday, but it's up now here:-

http://www.southwarkccg.nhs.uk/pages/home.aspx

There will be two public meetings on this at St Barnabas Church - one in the evening on Apr 30th and another in the afternoon of May 22nd. Furthermore, there will be another drop-in session at Dulwich Community Hospital on the evening of May 8th (I attended the first one on Mar 15th). Plus we will have a short presentation on this at the next DCC.

I would urge everyone to participate in this consultation and I'll post the Dulwich SPD consultation details again, as this planning document will help to determine what happens to the hospital site that isn't going to be used for medical provision as well as setting the parameters for development in Dulwich over the next 5-10 years.

[rch]

Hi UncleBen... don't shoot the messenger, I'm just telling you what's happening, I have no control over anything.

We simply don't have time, everything is happening NOW, in April, which is the beginning of the new financial year. All the PCT/NHS properties are being transferred into the new national PropCo and the Met properties are being transferred to the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime (MOPAC).

I have no political motivation in this at all... the use assets and replacement of services are being driven by funding issues that are far beyond my remit.

Councillors, AMs, and PMs are uniting cross-party to salvage whatever we can before it is broken up.

On a personal level, I probably use the services of the Community Hospital more than most people reading this forum, having just yesterday got my third batch of blood test results since December. But I think we will be lucky to salvage more than two acres of the seven acre site for medical services. In addition to a medical centre, I would personally like to see more elderly care services consolidated and based there, but I don't have much influence.

What happens to the rest of the site will depend on how much funding can be identified. Same with the police station.

If you can think of a way to raise several million pounds FAST, let me know! Conversely, if there are any benevolent millionaires reading this, please contact me asap...

[Penguin68]

In order to determine what, if anything, might replace the closing police station it is worth remembering that the station plays a number of roles

1. Base for policemen etc. to sit in, go back to, write up their notes, keep records, take prisoners suspects to, keep their civilian clothes in etc. etc. There is in fact no practical reason why such a base needs to be in ED, so long as police serving ED can readily get out into the streets. Ideally, if police are out patrolling (on foot, on bikes, in cars) then it may be slightly less convenient to have to travel (slightly) further to get back to base, but it is not a deal breaker.

2. As a location for members of the public to visit to report crime, show documents etc. Here modern communications (phones, IT/ internet and so on) can substantially substitute for physical presence (indeed, if members of the public data entry their own reports this will be an additional saving of police time). I would far rather report stuff by phone or on-line than get down to a police station, sit in a reception full of odd people etc. etc.

3. As a location for individuals to hand-in 'found' items - keys, wallets, and so on. Physical presence is required here, but it would be possible for this sort of activity to be franchised to e.g. Post Offices, banks, shops etc.

What this means is that, in determining what should replace a station we need to move away from the concept of one-stop (cop) shop and consider the different roles and what might best be modern alternatives. I have found no comfort in there being (as there was when I first moved here) a large ?armoured? police station packed with horses at the end of my road ? but rather was comforted by seeing foot patrols and police cars.

That station has been part-time for years now (and a complete waste of space, mainly) ? better use of resources (and some advance into the 21st century regarding processes) might be of real value to the community.

The police now have access electronically to vehicle documentation (including insurance, MOT, ?Log books?, driving licences) ? so the most common reason for physically visiting a station is now obsolete. If I am burgled or mugged I rather expect (although nowadays this doesn?t seem to happen so much) for the police to visit me, rather than the other way round.

There is no reason to report other crimes face-to-face. In the main the police don?t bother with them anyway, so they may as well not bother with them based on phone or internet reports. (When my car was vandalised and robbed I saw no one, although I did get a nice victim?s support letter eventually. I actually had evidence of the robber left in the car, but no police interest in that either.)

[UncleBen]

Hi rch, thanks for response. It seems to me that libdems 'lobbying' to get a police presence at the hospital is a smokescreen to hide not only libdem support of removing medical care from the entire site to build schools and housing and halls etc, but also to disguise inactivity concerning a police station in east dulwich. By the way your reply didn't answer if you wanted an art gallery at the hosp, or at what stage you went from Tory to libdem cnllr?

[UncleBen]

With all due respect P68, just because the police are generally rubbish it does not mean there should be no station here or the faceless plod not knowing about the local area or populace will continue. If the recent riots did not alert all to the dangers of lack of police in neighbourhoods then maybe it is all too late. People are being robbed & raped & burgled etc in the vicinity yet lets spend millions on policing football matches, brewery detritus in town centres, and G20 and arms conferences while the man in the street waits to become another victim.

[Huguenot]

Crikey, you can be a right boor sometimes UncleBen.

Personal attacks on RCH contribute nothing to either the debate or East Dulwich apart from advertising your own unpleasant streak.

You're just stood on the sidelines chucking mud and smirking like a Billy no mates 14 year old. Try playing nicely.

It doesn't make you look clever, just a bit sad.

[Penguin68]

With all due respect to UncleBen, having somewhere local that the plod can park their bums in is not the same as them knowing the local area - patrolling (even if they are bused in to do it) is the way they get to know the local area (and some of them do this). It is entirely possible to organise 'local' policing without having a local base to operate from. And the police aren't 'generally rubbish' (I do know I insinuated this) - but the way they are organised and prioritised could be re-visited.

[Pugwash]

we have some very helpful and efficient local coppers who know ED and its occupants inside out and also know the local trouble makers and their 'lines of crime' When I had my bag stolen in Sainsburys a couple of years ago, the police were there in less than 2 minutes. When i found a WW11 gun whilst clearing out my parent in laws house, it was to our local bobby that I rang for advice and handed it in at ED Police station. Over the years our SNT have served us well and many of us long term residents are on first name terms with our officers and can approach them with any concerns which affect our daily lives. We need to have confidence in our police and the more time they can spend policing the area and less time travelling the better for us all.

[James Barber]

Hi Uncleben,

What rubbish. Lib Dems want to see medical services provided at Dulwich Hospital. We'd like more that serve local residents. But it would be wholly inappropriate for all 27,000m2 to be rebuilt as an acute hospital - it would be sub scale and therefore the medics wouldnt get enough practice to give the safest possible care.

The actual buildings. The architects we've spoken to believe most of the buildings are of poor buiud quality.

Health professionals have said they need around 5,000m2 for the extended community medical care likely to be provided.

That leaves 22,000m2 for other community uses - such a new primary schools, such as temporarily housing for 5-7 years a local Police base.

Hi P68,

Of course Policing can happen without a local base. But the Police estimate 1/4 of their time will be spent travelling to and from a base in Camberwell and NOT spent actually policing in the Dulwich area. That is grossly inefficient and I'm surprised you're promoting such a publci waste of money.

But I believe you live in Peckham Rye ward so wont be directly affected by these changes.

[Penguin68]

James

Your 'nothing to do with you' belief about where I live is wholly mistaken - in fact I live just over the boundary of ED and College ward - the police station is (given the Whately extension to Underhill), at the end of 'my road'.

If you really believe that the police will spend 25% of their time travelling between Camberwell and ED then either the traffic at their time of travel is even worse than I normally experience, or their shifts are exceptionally short. Of course, given the number of 'refs' they presumably have to go back to maybe they are travelling back to base a very large number of times each day, to build their 25% travel time. From what I have seen, this doesn't reflect the number of arrests they are making (and anyway, they send cars to pick up arrested people, they don't move them by bus!).

I don't know whether you've actually noticed the frequency of police patrols in Dulwich (there's one PC who gets about a lot, but that's it) but most of the police in the ED station spent their time there and not patrolling. They might just have well been in Camberwell (or on the bus to and from it) for all the benefit we got from their presence.

[UncleBen]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi Uncleben,

> What rubbish. Lib Dems want to see medical

> services provided at Dulwich Hospital. We'd like

> more that serve local residents. But it would be

> wholly inappropriate for all 27,000m2 to be

> rebuilt as an acute hospital - it would be sub

> scale and therefore the medics wouldnt get enough

> practice to give the safest possible care.

>

> The actual buildings. The architects we've spoken

> to believe most of the buildings are of poor buiud

> quality.

>

> Health professionals have said they need around

> 5,000m2 for the extended community medical care

> likely to be provided.

> That leaves 22,000m2 for other community uses -

> such a new primary schools, such as temporarily

> housing for 5-7 years a local Police base.

>

JB-thanks! Am glad to see you have been talking to everyone except local voters, and that the stats and terms you use are just to hide the real issue-that the hosp was left to run down, that the whole site can be used for needed medical services such as what was there before together with more badly needed intermediate care beds esp for the elderley, and services that have been axed at the Maudsley. There are other services as you well know. There is and never was 'spare' land that is prepostrous, it is land to be sold to developers and the lib dems are behind it for political not local reasons. If you had spent a tenth of your time you did canvassing views/trying to persuade people to back an 'aspirational' supermarket on the hosp and the police station then we may have still had worthwhile both.

[Renata Hamvas]

There is also another site being proposed for a front desk, Dulwich Library.

Yes, there is definitely cross party dismay at these cuts.

I'm very concerned that with the staffing changes too. Safer Neighbourhood Teams will be larger, however only one police sergeant plus a PCSO will be fixed in any SNT, the others can be sent anywhere in the Borough. They will have to deal with all aspects of a case, from it's start to finish eg all the paperwork, studying forensic reports etc, court case etc. This could tie up our SNT members for a very long time. In theory the changes are meant to provide more police on the streets, but actually this is just a reshuffle(our frontline SNTs will be doing duties that were previously done in the back office. Police numbers in Southwark have been cut in the last couple of years. Cynical me thinks that our SNT staff that have become known to local residents will end up spending much of their time dealing with cases elsewhere in the Borough. It is a major erosion of SNTs as we know them.

Renata

[Health Involvement]

The consultation on 'Improving health services in Dulwich and the surrounding areas', that is referenced in this thread continues until the end of May 2013. There are two public events, which you can book to attend, [as well as several drop ins].

Public events are on 30 April 2013 from 19:00 and 22 May 2013 from 14:00

Book in advance at: www.eventbrite.co.uk/org/3342531072?s=12883252

You can read the proposals and give us your thoughts using the online questionnaire:

www.southwarkccg.nhs.uk/GetInvolved/ImprovingServicesConsultation/Pages/default.aspx

[James Barber]

The possibly Dulwich Library front counter would be rarely open and staffed. Certainly not the equivalent or better service Boris made last year in his election manifesto.

We're talking about a couple of hours each week. From experience such surgeries don't see many visitors because you have to know exactly when they're running and attend the times at just those opening hours. It makes it a special trip to weave into all of lifes many demands. Versus a turn up and go service.

[rch]

Just to let everyone know that cross-party councillors met with the police Borough Commander last night to discuss the logistics of using the Gatehouse at the Dulwich Hospital site as a "touchdown base" for our ringfenced police officers under the new Policing Model set-up, which is going to come into effect on June 24th in Southwark.

This means that, once the police officers have travelled into their wards from the Camberwell Police Station, they can remain in their wards during scheduled breaks and for one on one meetings with residents, thereby enabling them to spend more time out on the streets without having to travel back and forth to Camberwell several times a day. This should make a significant enough difference in commuting time to warrant the small amount of expenditure offered by the council.

Although this still isn't confirmed, councillors made a strong enough case that the Borough Commander has agreed to consider a proper business case study on the Gatehouse proposal and meet again to discuss logistics and costings with councillors on the 30th April.

So, hopefully we're getting there slowly but surely.

[UncleBen]

According to Southwark News no police at the hospital. No police station. What now libdems?

[rch]

UncleBen, go back and read the article more carefully.

It goes on to say, 'But he [sutherland] added that the site could be used as a "patrol step off point" where cops could input information into a database if it was "cost effective".'

This is basically what I am saying above. Dulwich Councillors cross-party support the use of the Gatehouse as a touchdown base/patrol step off point to supplement the New Policing Model and we will be going back to meet with the Borough Commander to assess the costs on Apr 30th.

We are clear that we consider this to be an "interim" step until future funding can be identified to fund a patrol base with an integrated front counter service within a "Dulwich Cluster" of up to 5 wards.

[James Barber]

Hi UncleBen,

It was clear from our cllr meeting with Southwark Police chief John sutherland that the changes he plans - that start 24 June - have had no operational analysis. Apparently organising the Police is "more art than science".

He couldn't say what the new organisation would feel like for Dulwich or any other residents of Southwark. No ideas about how many hours a week we'd see officers or how often they'd 'come over the hill' to Police our area.

It was clear that as the plans are actually thought through that they'll change. He announced the Seeley Drive College SNT would not be the SNT base for College - effectively moth balling it. He announced they'll have a minibus. Both were new developements. In the Tuesday article he gave himself some wriggle room for a Dulwich "patrol stop off point". That's a start. He has also committed to consider a Dulwich cluster for our next cllr meeting with him on Tuesday 30 April.

East Dulwich cllrs are going to start a petiton to keep a Dulwich Police base - http://eepurl.com/sPKmf