East Dulwich boundaries

[edcam]

The parish border and postcode arguments are really rather irrelevant. Nobody considers Bellenden village to be part of E.D. Even years ago, long before its current trendiness, it was always considered more Peckahm than anything.

[LondonMix]

This really is not that complicated. We do not need to consult Victorian maps with old parishes. Many parts of London were once part of Kent, Surrey etc and its totally irrelevant. Ask someone who grew up in that part of SE London and they will tell you its Peckham. Ask someone who grew up in ED in the 60s and they will tell you the area we are talking about is Peckham. Why all of a sudden people want to change that is odd. That part of Peckham is nicer than many parts of East Dulwich like I've said on another thread but that's no reason for its residents to decide to disown Peckham.

[edhistory]

Southern boundary map: http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/file.php?5,file=30306

[Otta]

Indeed edcam.

[Otta]

Well said London Mix.

[Gidget]

How is it that Grove Vale on both sides is SE22 and the roads leading off it like Coplestone, Oglander, Ondine are SE15? Also, the new development off Coplestone is SE22 and it was only recently built. St. John's Church is SE22 and the school that belongs to is on Adys Rd. SE15.

[edcam]

Gidget Wrote:

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> How is it that Grove Vale on both sides is SE22

> and the roads leading off it like Coplestone,

> Oglander, Ondine are SE15? Also, the new

> development off Coplestone is SE22 and it was only

> recently built. St. John's Church is SE22 and the

> school that belongs to is on Adys Rd. SE15.

Because the postcode indicates the sorting office any given street is allocated to, presumably based around distance from the office, size and capacity of the office etc. nothing to do with an area as it sits in people's perception.

[Otta]

That school was originally on the corner of Northcross and Archdale Roads. They moved to the current site around 93 or thereabouts.

[MrBen]

Otta Wrote:

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> The forest hill thing was meant to be a joke. The

> point is, we live in 2012, and no one except for

> you would conside Bellenden Road to be part of

> East Dulwich. It's not even borderline close.

>

> You say that post codes don't count because they

> came in around WW1. I dread to think what you

> think about Israel!

Have you consulted the MAPS Otta?

[edhistory]

Gidget Wrote:

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> How is it that Grove Vale on both sides is SE22

> and the roads leading off it like Coplestone,

> Oglander, Ondine are SE15? Also, the new

> development off Coplestone is SE22 and it was only

> recently built. St. John's Church is SE22 and the

> school that belongs to is on Adys Rd. SE15.

The land where the Dog Kennel Hill Sainsbury's was built was originally in SE5.

This yhen mysteriously changed to SE22.

So instead of a Camberwell Sainsbury's we have (East) Dulwich Sainsbury's.

John K

[edhistory]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

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> I think Dulwich LIbrary is a good border marker.

This goes back to landscape history.

This part of the western East Dulwich boundary follows the watershed between the Peck and Effra valleys.

John

[computedshorty]

Not a lot o people know that!

Buckingham Palace is well known, it still has a postcode: SW1A 1AA.

It is the only building to have this postcode,

although the House of Commons has a similar one - SW1A 0AA.

[Gidget]

John K,

When did the SE5 into SE22 happen? That is just bizarre.

The flats opposite Sainsburys - Dog Kennel Hill Estate? are all SE22 which is also a bit random. Were they also SE5 at one point?

[LondonMix]

Oddly, Bessemer Grange is SE5 even thought is fully surrounded by other postcodes.

Anyway, who cares... The history is interesting of course but its not the most important thing in life!

[edhistory]

Gidget Wrote:

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> John K,

> When did the SE5 into SE22 happen? That is just

> bizarre.

I believe that anyne can apply to have a postcode changed. We could ask Sainsbury's if they did. I don't know the exact date.

> The flats opposite Sainsburys - Dog Kennel Hill

> Estate? are all SE22 which is also a bit random.

> Were they also SE5 at one point?

I beliee they were always in SE22. Somewhere I have Kelly's Post Office Directory Maps for 1922 and 1946 but it may take several days to find them. These can provide clarification.

John K

[edhistory]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Oddly, Bessemer Grange is SE5 even thought is

> fully surrounded by other postcodes.

Probably orphaned as a result of the Sainsbury's change.

> Anyway, who cares... The history is interesting

> of course but its not the most important thing in

> life!

And in 2012 it is interesting to know that East Dulwich is not limited to the SE22 post code.

John K

[Huguenot]

My understanding from the map is the same as Otta - is it that you've simply conflated the St. John's parish with East Dulwich John? It seems a bit arbitrary. It doesn't even have the name East Dulwich?

Strikes me you can define an area in many ways:

Legacy church parish boundaries

Postcode

Electoral ward

Distance from the train station

Whilst all of these have their failings, I think it would be overplaying one's hand to claim any of them were definitively 'wrong'?

Most people's interpretation seem to be a loose amalgam of all four definitions.

[Mick Mac]

Burbage Wrote:

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> the-e-dealer Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Verbiage seems to think that zpopulations

> > never change and MPs should get an easy ride.

>

> Not quite. I meant that the Boundary Commission

> aren't the best people to ask where anywhere

> happens to be, simply because their answer will

> necessarily reflect their opinion (or lack of it)

> at a particular moment in time, and their opinion

> is not the same as my opinion, nor does it

> necessarily coincide with the opinions of

> cartographers, historians, Postal Czars or those

> with houses to sell. To elaborate the point, they

> are the arbiters of democratic expedience rather

> than geographical truth, and have no monopoly on

> the matter, save with respect to electoral

> concerns which, with respect to the e-dealer, are

> far from the only possible concerns.

>

> Consider this: if everyone within the current

> electoral boundaries went to live in Margate,

> leaving the place devoid of human inhabitants,

> East Dulwich would cease to exist in the mind of

> the Electoral Commission. Yet, to anyone else, the

> impudent persistence of the Railway Station, the

> Sorting Office and the Palm Tree Roundabout would

> clearly attest to it continuing to be a place.

>

> Happily, given the question was what your (or, in

> my case, my) opinion of where the East Dulwich

> boundaries are (or by implication, should be), the

> question of whether the Boundary Commission is or

> is not an infallible bureacratic ornament becomes

> entirely irrelevant.

>

> Given the level of interest in the issue, I have

> sacrificed a portion of my afternoon in pursuit of

> enlightenment and am now in the happy position of

> being able to publish the results here for the

> benefit of all. I trust no further clarification

> will be required.

Looks like I don't live in east dulwich anymore on the basis of this analysis. Seeing as I am just south of the junction of Goodrich and Friern I find that a bit surprising.

[Jeremy]

To repeat my question - why should historical boundries be considered more relevant than modern ones?

[Otta]

For most people they wouldn't be.

All I know is that if you'd walked in to the Wishing Well on Bellenden Road say 10 years ago, and suggested to the regulars that it was an East Dulwich pub, they simply would have told you to fuck off.

[LondonMix]

Exactly!

Who knows, things are always changing. Maybe within a generation all of south Peckham will be seen as part of ED and people will wonder why the station is called Peckham Rye when its in ED ect. It could happen but the point is it hasn't happened yet and certainly wasn't the case even 10 years ago. The efforts of some to suggest it should be this way therefore seem suspect.

[Mick Mac]

When I moved to East Dulwich my friends tried to tell me I lived in Peckham, just to wind me up.

Now someone (Burbage) is trying to tell me I live in Dulwich instead of East Dulwich.

I'm just happy with East Dulwich, stop moving me around.

[????]

For the Hipsters among us (Mick?) surely Peckham is where you wanna be nowadays, in 5 years time everyone in North East Dulwich will be trying to say they are in Peckham...

[Gidget]

There is a Peckham Rye, SE22......

[Mick Mac]

???? Wrote:

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> For the Hipsters among us (Mick?) surely Peckham

> is where you wanna be nowadays, in 5 years time

> everyone in North East Dulwich will be trying to

> say they are in Peckham...

Yes - very hip. hop. me.