CofE regects appointment of female bishops

[DJKillaQueen]

So the C of E choose to continue it's tradition of institutionalised misogyny and regected the appointment of female bishops today. Does the C of E have any future? Or is this the final death rattle of an institution well past it's sell by date?

[silverfox]

Actually, the No Vote was a result of the voting system - three divisions of the General Synod all needed a 2/3 majority. It was the laity that didn't reach that total, partly I understand, because the code of conduct to set out the exemptions for those who didn't wish to be ministered to by a woman hadn't been decided (it was to be debated and voted for after a Yes vote).

So it would appear the majority of those who voted, voted yes - but lost the vote for procedural reasons and because the laity felt they couldn't vote yes because they didn't know exactly what they were voting for because the rules governing such appointments hadn't yet been decided.

The Archbishop Elect will be inheriting a poisoned chalice next spring.

(edited for spelling)

[Otta]

It was the laypeople who made the difference. Idiots!

[DJKillaQueen]

It all sounds more complicated that it should be to me. Either the C of E has female bishops or it doesn't. Setting rules for those that don't want it even if they become allowed is just daft and wouldn't be tolerated in normal law. Perhaps the C of E needs to be reminded that it does actually have a woman at the head of it...in the form of the monarch. Queen Elizabeth II tends not to interfere in things even though she has a constitutional right to do so, but a future female monarch might not be so passive.

[StraferJack]

Ridiculous decision obviously

On the plus side, what intelligent woman would want to join such a moribund organisation anyway?

[eco79]

Please forgive all ignorance, but can you be a lady rabbi or a lady imam?

[Jeremy]

My initial reaction was along the lines of why would a woman want to work for an organisation where they weren't wanted. But actually it seems that the council DID want female bishops, by a vote of 324 to 122. So how does that work? What sort of system is that?

eco 79 - I think you'll find that "lady rabbi" is sexist, the correct term is "rabette".

[Huguenot]

Haha eco, there's a few on here who would suggest that your use of the word 'lady' betrays latent gender discrimination on your part, since 'lady' signifies demure, inoffensive and self abasing traits.

Overlooking that...

The Koran makes no statement about whether women can lead people in prayer, so it's all down to interpretation of related literature. As a result certain sects allow female imams and some not. The debate is whether references to females not being allowed to lead prayer is actually a reflection of Islam, or just a hangover from medieval patriarchal tradition.

Female rabbis were first ordained in 1972, but as with Chritianity different movements or orders treat this differently.

So I think your question was about whether Christianity was being treated differently to other religions in terms of women's role in the hierarchy. The answer is it's not, other major religions are suffering the same internal wrangles as the old male guard fights for their control.

Incidentally, I challenge the entire premise of your question, as it seems to hinge on whether decisions regarding one religious structure can be made on the basis of whatever another religion may do.

This is completely illogical, these are religions with a violent history of social manipulation, not after school clubs.

If one religions decides genital mutilation is okay, it doesn't mean the rest can too..

[Otta]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ridiculous decision obviously

>

>

> On the plus side, what intelligent woman would

> want to join such a moribund organisation anyway?

Because they have a strong faith and a calling?

[StraferJack]

It was slightly tongue in cheek Otta. It wasn?t meant as a dig at faith (not this time anyway) more at how people choose to use that faith

Given the discord in the CoE at present (with many existing senior figures despairing over declining congregations, as well as how things like this vote play with the public), wanting to become a bishop in that organisation seems like a dysfunctional way to utilise one?s faith or calling

The church now faces several more years of to and froing on this ? one suspects it will eventually happen, but by that time will anyone care?

Will Bishops still have an automatic place in House of Lords?

Will congregations be even smaller?

[Otta]

Remember, it wasn't that long ago that these women were fighting for the right to be vicars (about '90/91). And it's this generation that are fighting this fight now.

I guess for them it's like getting in to politics. One could ask why would anyone want to get involved with that shower, but to change an institution you need to fight your way up to the positions where you can have real influence.

[DJKillaQueen]

That's true Otta and not something unique to religious institutions either. It's just that religious institutions are painfully slow to change.

Of course, the falling congregations are exactly a result of that growing gap between reform on the roles and achievements of women in wider society, amongst other things, and the snail's pace of reform within the church. Increasingly the church is showing itself to be out of step, to it's own detriment.

[uncleglen]

They are all scared stiff they will lose what's left of their congregation to the Catholic church, IMO.

[????]

I think it's all a load of tosh as many know...but

...it could easily be argued that the C of E has lost its way precisely by trying to be wet, liberal and plaesing eveyone up until now and hence no-one has a scooby what it stands for...being a secular religion makes no sesnse really. A religon should surely be based on an idiotic set of myths or the writings of a single person as a spokesperson of god? Being thoroughly nice, liberal and caring without much else is a bit of a waste of time religioulsy

Meanwhile, intolerant, bigoted, unplaesant Catholicism and Islam march on, the latter especially, often uncriticised by secular liberals. just pick on the wooly old C of E...

As far as i'm concerned I'm with Swift they are all arguing over which end of a boiled egg you should open.

[Huguenot]

I did discover that the elected positions at the General Synod are elected via Single Transferable Vote.

Silverfox must be furious at such demonstrable undemocratic behaviour.

[El Pibe]

They are all scared stiff they will lose what's left of their congregation to the Catholic church old age, IMO.

*corrected for you*

[El Pibe]

aaah, big endians and little endians. *sighs*

Actually I think the more appropriate analogy is the one about a tree falling in a forest.

[StraferJack]

First paragraph of quids post I agree with but this

"Meanwhile, intolerant, bigoted, unplaesant Catholicism and Islam march on, the latter especially, often uncriticised by secular liberals. just pick on the wooly old C of E... "

Is either trolling or you believe it. Either way its horseshit. It's willful disregarding of the ongoing criticism of both. But for a self professed ideology hater you sure have some sacred cows of your own

Regardless, the reason this Coe issue is of particular interest is because of its inbuilt role into the constitutional fabric of this country, unlike the other religions mentioned. 26 places in House of Lords, out of bounds to women for this reason alone

[El Pibe]

"26 places in House of Lords, out of bounds to women for this reason alone"

explain!?

[StraferJack]

http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views/the-church-in-parliament/bishops-in-the-house-of-lords.aspx

[El Pibe]

I'm none the wiser as to your assertion.

[StraferJack]

Am I missing something then?

Bishops of the COE have 26 places in House of Lords?

Women are not allowed to be bishops?

So, that's 26 places denied to women in the upper chamber because of their gender, no?

Granted its not a shining beacon of equality anyway but not sure what I'm getting wrong with my assertion ?

[????]

How many women are allowed into the main prayer room at Friday prayers at any mosque globally or in the UK?.just asking

[StraferJack]

A) the phrase "just asking" is the preserve of idiots. Just a step up from "just sayin"

B ) if you want to bring up other religions the do the honor of answering my previous point. And also recognise you are strawmanning just a bit

How many women are or aren't allowed into a mosque is a topic of discussion. None? Well blow me down with a feather, religion shows yet again how backward it is

But here we are talking about the establishment and its exclusion of a whole gender. If you are religious it's ultimately your choice. But when it comes to legislature OF THE COUNTRY WE LIVE IN , and people are excluded that's something else

[StraferJack]

For example, in the viruntly anti catholic thread re abortion and the woman who died in Galway, I don't recall your contribution quids? And yet there I am banging away about the backwardness of Ireland and from you? Nothing

I do the same here? And all you do is complain how Catholics and Muslims get a free ride

It doesn't really lend any credibility to your arguments