Promoting cycling and walking

[Monkey]

I?m a new cyclist. The one thing that would make a difference for me above everything else is better drivers. Drivers who don?t overtake me at all costs, racing towards a red light. Drivers who don?t undertake me. Drivers who don?t drive on my back wheel. Drivers who don?t double park. Drivers who leave the cycling box to cyclists. Drivers who don?t overtake me to then stop suddenly to turn left. If this happens, we can all cohabit peacefully. Until then, I?ll support the LTNs.

[RichH]

The one thing that would make a difference to you above everything else is becoming a better, more experienced cyclist, rather than blaming others for your own shortcomings.

[heartblock]

Well I do understand science, because I am a scientist, a specialist in cardio respiratory health. Hence I support anything that reduces asthma in children, especially children from poorer homes living on polluted roads in London. Rosamund is against LTNs for this exact reason https://londonnewsonline.co.uk/mother-of-a-nine-year-old-ella-who-died-from-fatal-asthma-attack-hopes-inquest-will-save-future-lives/. Her daughter died of asthma and she lived on a polluted road.

Anyway ....

Back to cycling - I think in London separate cycle lanes are the only scheme that will make me feel really safe. There are just too many bad car drivers out there. Do you remember in the first lockdown, less cars, but people were speeding and there was some terrible driving. Sometimes even when just walking the driving scares me, when I cycle I?m scared all the time!

[malumbu]

Then you will also know that there are numerous factors cause asthma such as poor housing. The case of Ella is very sad and maybe the inquest may improved things for chidren in the future. Anyway that is speculating on a legal case and let's leave that for another thread (I've regularly posted on air quality).

Looking at the cycling vision this is around segregating cyclists from cars and from pedestrians. I'd love it if we lived in a world where the 20mph zones worked and we all lived in harmony sharing the road, and cyclists could position themselves correctly rather than cower near the curb. As you said the roads were generally wonderful in early lockdown (with the exception of the occasional dckhead driver taking advantage of no enforcement of speed limits). Bad driving also applies to cyclists (some bad riders out there) and this can also put people off.

Do join one of the Southwark Cyclists Saturday rides, when they are hopefully back after lockdown. Much more gentle.

than some of the cycling clubs mentioning no names.... Not a constructive post RichH. Hope I don't meet you on the road.

[exdulwicher]

RichH Wrote:

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> The one thing that would make a difference to you

> above everything else is becoming a better, more

> experienced cyclist, rather than blaming others

> for your own shortcomings.

That's a pretty disgraceful attitude to be honest and it's the reason that so few people are willing to try cycling or they try it and are put off almost immediately.

If/when you're subject to a close pass, a driver yelling at you to pay road tax or use the cycle lane, if you're having to fight for roadspace in amongst trucks and buses, you don't think "gosh, I should become a better cyclist".

You think "**** me this is insane, I'm certainly not letting my kids ride to school!"

And then you pop them into the car for the 1 mile drive to school and add to the congestion and the circle continues.

@malumbu makes some excellent points and the topic of integrated transport has been touched upon as well. The problem with Government is that it is incredibly silo'd thinking where they'll consider "cycling" as the actual bit of riding from A to B. Having a nice bit of segregated cycle lane to do that is brilliant BUT - what happens at B? Where do you park the bike, is it secure? For far too many destinations (cinema, supermarket, leisure centre, train station etc) the cycle parking is a couple of Sheffield stands round the back "out of the way" - right where it can be stolen with minimal fuss and effort. In that situation, no-one is going to ride in spite of the nice lane, which then leads onto accusations of building a cycle lane that's never used and it should be ripped up.

Conversely, a forward thinking business might supply a lovely secure cycle parking facility but if that destination is just off a busy A road with no safe way of getting there you get the reverse - no one will cycle because the journey is dangerous. They have to be done in conjunction.

[RichH]

exdulwicher Wrote:

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> That's a pretty disgraceful attitude to be honest

> and it's the reason that so few people are willing

> to try cycling or they try it and are put off

> almost immediately.

>

> If/when you're subject to a close pass, a driver

> yelling at you to pay road tax or use the cycle

> lane, if you're having to fight for roadspace in

> amongst trucks and buses, you don't think "gosh, I

> should become a better cyclist".

>

Rubbish. Your lack of confidence riding on the road is your problem, yet you expect everyone else to change just to suit you. And did it ever occur to you stop and consider why you were shouted at? Might it have been something you did to provoke that response? After I learned to drive I got shouted at because I lacked experience and made plenty of mistakes. The answer is not to blame everyone else but to gain more experience (perhaps take a bikability course or one of those Saturday rides malumbu mentions) then you'll be a better rider and wont feel so intimidated riding in traffic. Motorists aren't out to get you!

When you learned to swim you didn't blame the water for your initial lack of buoyancy and expect it to change did you? :)

Anyway, my point has been made and I shan't comment further on this thread as I have no real interest in promoting one form of transport over another or initiating yet another pointless bikes vs cars argument. I don't particularly care who rides or drives what provided that:

1. It's legal

2. They're competent

I suspect that a Monkey (the name of the poster to whom I was originally replying) riding a bicycle on the road fails both conditions [JOKE!] :))

[malumbu]

Oh do keep on posting, this is getting fun. My intention was to examine the government's cycling and walking vision and get views on whether this would work/how it could be delivered. It wasn't a cars vs bikes vs pedestrians thread. I'm an exceptionally brilliant walker, cyclist, driver and motorcyclist (I can't claim the same for sailing, flying but I did have a go in a glider once).

I've been knocked off my pushbike several times and motorbike once by inattentive/dangerous drivers. Obviously not representing all drivers. But we are in a world that encourages speed and the thrills of adventurous driving (car ads, Top Gear etc). We don't have a similar culture of praising responsible driving. None of the above were my fault (I can give separate examples of where I was an idiot). Competency for driving is established over a relatively short time, and is last examined for most during the driving test which can mean 60 or 70 years without a check of your ability. Fortunately the car will be taking over much of your decisions, but hopefully most will have switched to mobility on demand by that point, autonomous pods, public transport and active travel and our roads can be freed of many cars (sorry I've slipped into an anti-car post). https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/86984/driverless-pods-begin-trials-in-london/

[Montyl]

If you want to go on an unforgettable journey that will definitely leave impressions for a lifetime, I suggest you visit the Chernobyl zone https://chernobyl-visit.com/ru/ - now it is a very popular tourist destination. There you can see the ruins of abandoned houses, abandoned schools, gardens, streets, amusement parks and even a reactor that exploded 34 years ago. All this looks frightening and creepy, but, nevertheless, it is very interesting there. You will have the opportunity to eat national Ukrainian cuisine, as well as take memorable pictures. My wife and I were two years ago, are still delighted.

[malumbu]

Well that worked a treat.....

Thinking further two schemes - more radical

Annual quota of road miles driving - say you were allowed 6000, but could trade if not used. Like carbon credits, and the proposed air miles credits. I don't know how you would credit walking and cycling beyond this would be a means to reduce miles driven. This would also encourage car sharing (let's imagine a world without Covid). How you would enforce this, flexibility according to need (eg those with medical or other special needs higher allowance) is not clear.

Scheme two would be simply to reward people for cycling and walking rather than driving. Some organisations pay good mileage rates for cycling (not aware of anyone paying for walking, but don't see why not) on official business. I saw a wonderful scheme that Pfizer operated when they had their manufacturing in Sandwich. Credits to those using bus bike or foot to get to work. Preferential parking for car share. Solo car use parked furthest away - so still allowed but discouraged.

Can't find any examples of the former, as a search just comes up with tax allowances. But rather than shoot this down do give some thoughts on how this would work in practice. An annual flying allowance (or high use levy) has been put forward so it is not total pie in the sky.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/jul/19/carbon-calculator-how-taking-one-flight-emits-as-much-as-many-people-do-in-a-year

[malumbu]

Here's some unexciting debate in parliament yesterday (although very supporting of cycling), no mention of Southwark or K&C

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-12-03/debates/508957A2-D706-41FB-97D3-83496812F240/WalkingAndCycling

Warning: this has some reference to middle aged men in lycra......

[Pugwash]

Hubby was a cyclist for 40 plus years. He was hard up in his youth and could not afford fares to get to work etc. At one stage, before I met him, he was cycling from Tulse Hill to Cheshunt in Hertfordshire on a weekly basis. He was involved in a couple of accidents- one when the driver of a parked car opened his door without checking it was clear to do so. Hubby was knocked off bike and cut arms and legs. Driver just cursed him and did not check if he was ok. The other incident was he was cycling straight ahead when a car came from behind and swerved in front , knocking him down and damaging wheels, frame and gears of his bike. There were witnesses, and the driver gave his details as bike was looking as though it was a write off. Hubby claimed off our household insurance for new bike and they tried to follow up the car driver with no avail. We spoke to our local police officer who visited the address given and found it to be a fraudulent address.

The point I am making is that cyclists do encounter incidents as above, but unless they have household insurance, cannot claim for repairs/replacements. Equally if a cyclist had caused an accident where a pedestrian or motorist is involved/injured, the 'injured' party is unlikely to be able to claim damages etc. All cyclists should have insurance and all cycle frames need to be engraved with ID numbers. Many people are against cyclists as they can be inconsiderate road users- not having lights,not wearing high viz clothing, cutting up pedestrians and motorists at traffic lights and behaving dangerously.

I spent some time studying in Holland and noticed that every road had a cycle lane running beside it, usually separated by a grass verge. Motorists and cyclists were able to peacefully co exist . I was in Holland in January and it was amusing that when we had heavy snow the snow plough cleared the cycle lanes first . I was a cyclist myself many years ago, but infirmity has caught up with me and I can no longer get on a bike let alone ride one.I use public transport, can walk short distances, but need a car in order to visit my family in Kent and Sussex As I do (or did before lockdown) community work and generally ferrying older/frail people to and fro events/meetings, my car is essential and I will not give it up.

[Earl Aelfheah]

malumbu Wrote:

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> Lots going on but one hell of a backlash on this

> forum re: Low Traffic Neighbourhoods. Three areas

> of particular interest to me

>

> 1. How LTN - Low Traffic Neighbourhoods - could

> be done better (rather than individual threads

> about where a vocal (minority?) are up in arms)

> PS behaviour change takes time and got some good

> stuff from Sustrans, will post later rather than

> inflame things further as it can look a little

> patronising.

> 2. Linked to the above, safer cycling and shared

> road space. Pavements aren't for cyclists but

> most road users believe roads aren't similarly.

> There is still mass antipathy from drivers towards

> cyclists. Rather than change this view and

> actually get 20mph zones etc to work we have

> instead moved to segregated cycle ways, which can

> be a clumsy compromise.

> 3. Cycle theft. I pop to the shops for a paper,

> have to chain my bike up and take the lights off,

> taking longer than actually being in the shop. I

> go out for the night, will my bike still be there

> when I return? Had four nicked, three in London.

> One was on gumtree the same evening, but the

> police were not resourced to chase this up.

>

> PS Bike Register marking, Franklins, Saturday 31st

> 10 - 2

Electric hire schemes (such as Lime, or Uber) and a few segregated cycle lanes connecting to local tube and train stations would usher in a step change. It would normalise 'hopping on a bike' for short journeys, would remove the ownership / theft issue for individuals and massively broaden it's appeal, outside of the middle aged men in lycra brigade.

[malumbu]

On step change if we get it right there will be a revolution in personal mobility, whist a reduction in private car use. As you say about linking up transport nodes.

Pugwash, I've posted before on safety and the like. I've been in numerous accidents, less so in recent years although I still get into a situation where I can't unclip fast enough and simply fall in the street every other year or so. In deed many of my accidents are no other vehicle involved, either road conditions of just being an rrrsss. But back to safety from other vehicles, never did any cycle training, but motorcycle training gave me much greater awareness of positioning and those around me. Bikeability will install this in the next generation.

I've had far fewer accidents and near misses in recent years as I just think that I am a better cyclist. You get a sixth sense when drivers are on mobiles, not going to indicate, and the vehicle noise (high revs/low gear) means to tuck into the curb. There is also hazard from powered and non-powered two wheelers, and pedestrians in particularly those impervious to noise (headphones), on phone, checking texts whatever. Although it is for us to avoid them.

I'd love it if we could share space better. Generally many of us do. I drive as well and last thing I want to do is to hassle more vulnerable road users. I still think government should do more to encourage good driving, cycling, and even pedestrianising. I'm sort of involved but one step removed. One of my hobbies used to be instructing drivers on Court Lane - drive on the accelerator not the brake, slow down slightly before the speed bump and accelerate gently as you approach it, Look you can to the whole mile smoothly without braking and just as quick. Rather than 95% of those - accelerate/brake, accelerate/brake. As the cyclist doing a constant speed overtakes them.