London Overground line extension timetable

[Lowlander]

katgod Wrote:

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> Can I ask the experts here - when travelling from

> FH or PR on Overground and changing at Canada

> Water for the tube, should I be touching in and

> out on the pink 'interchange' machine to get the

> cheapest deal? Some people do some don't - I

> usually do but am not sure if I need to or not.

> Thanks

No. I've been using that line for a year now and it's ?1.50 each way in zone 2.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi Bic Bacher,

I don't know if you saw the below:

Here is the motion that I presented at Council Assembly in the Spring; it was seconded by Cllr Mark Glover (A Lane Ward Councillor). This received cross-party agreement and was ratified by Cabinet. I have been a Peckham Rye Ward Councillor for two years, so I can't comment on events before then, except that I knew the South London Line was due to be axed. Part of the problem is that that South London Line and the Victoria-Dartford Line are run by rail companies, Southern and Southeastern respectively. Local Ward councillors only have a limited impact in this situation. Our local GLA representative Valerie Shawcross has also been active on this issue.

I am very concerned that even though there has been publicity about this, that not everyone knows about the loss of the South London Line or are only finding about it now. Yes the new service will be useful for many people, but the loss of the South London Line will be a nightmare for others, as it will mean far longer and more convoluted journeys for those travelling to Victoria and surrounding areas.

Renata

South London Line Replacement

RESOLVED:

That the motion referred from council assembly as a recommendation to cabinet, set out below be noted and agreed.

That council assembly notes that the South London Line is a well-used regular train service linking Victoria and London Bridge. Thousands of Southwark residents use it on a daily basis, as it serves Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Queens Road, Peckham Station, South Bermondsey and London Bridge from early morning until late evening seven days a week.

2. That council assembly regrets that this service is due to be cancelled later this year when the East London Line spur from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction is opened. There will be a reduced service from Peckham Rye, Queens Road and South Bermondsey to London Bridge. As a consequence of the cancellation of the South London Line, Southwark residents will no longer have a train connection to Victoria in the evenings and early mornings and half the current service at other times.

3. That council assembly notes that the service that will remain if no replacement is offered is the Victoria to Dartford service that starts at rush hour and finishes in the early evening. The Victoria to Dartford service is already unfit for purpose. Southwark residents are walking to New Cross to get southbound trains in the morning as the service starts too late. Also, residents cannot access by train, a key connection with the Docklands Light Railway/train hub at Lewisham outside Monday to Saturday peak hours. For two years, the First Capital Connect service has been diverted to Victoria in the evenings. The level of use of this service and the soon to be axed South London Line has shown there is great demand for an evening service to Victoria from the Southwark stations.

4. That council assembly believes the new East London Line is a welcome addition to transport links for Southwark residents. It is however, very much a supplement rather that a substitute to existing routes, as Clapham Junction is geographically a very different destination to Victoria. It is understood that due to routing challenges, with the increased line use that changes to the current service may be necessary. However, suitable substitutes need to be in place.

5. That council assembly supports the proposal for the Victoria to Dartford service to become a full, early morning until midnight seven-day a week service (two trains per hour in each direction), complementing a full First Capital Connect Sevenoaks to Bedford service via Blackfriars. Additional service would be provided during peak hours (similar to the current Victoria to Dartford service) with two trains per hour between Victoria and Bellingham. This would result in maintenance of the current train frequency at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye to and from Victoria and an increase of two trains per hour at Nunhead. Two trains per hour would still be lost from Queen?s Road Station; however, Nunhead Station is 10 minutes walk from Queen?s Road

[James Barber]

And I was glad to suggest to you that proposed this motion.

[Jeremy]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> There have been proposals on and off for the last

> 80 years to extend the Bakerloo Line from the

> Elephant to Camberwell (and possibly Peckham) -

> the Camberwell extension proposals even appeared

> on some tube maps after WW2 (I believe). Why can't

> these plans be reactivated?

It would be great, but the money has to come from somewhere doesn't it!

[LondonMix]

This is the point. We act like these decisions have no financial repercusions. I personally propose helicopters for all.

There is still Victoria service. Do we need more Victoria trains and off peak Victoria service with the ELLX? Let's wait and see but many used Victoria as a means to get elsewhere on the city and there simply may no longer be the justifiable need for more trains despite the off-peak inconvenience.

No one can argue the overcrowding at Victoria is dangerous and this threatens the overall service of those that do rely on it because they work in Victoria proper. Those still travelling to Victoria might find better service and the trains that remain.

[LondonMix]

Also, let's not pretend that the fact a line has existed means it must always exist and nothing can ever change. Lots of tube and train stations have closed. The question is if transport changes are a objective benefit including use of tax payer money and interactions with the broader network.

[bil]

Bic Basher Wrote:

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> Excuse me Mr Barber, I've lived in ED ALL MY LIFE

> THANK YOU!!

>

> I've been here when we had bugger all transport

> wise. I can remember waiting 30 mins for buses in

> LL, two trains an hour, nothing on Sundays and yet

> the moaning minnies on here are complaining that

> we're getting MORE TRAINS.

>

> We now have a situation where those in the east of

> SE22 now have trains every 5 mins from FH and HOP,

> DH and PR are seeing their rail service and

> capacity improve by 50% in comparison with now

> with cheaper rail fares on Oyster which is much

> needed to help people find work away from South

> London in one of the poorest areas of Southwark.

>

> Face the facts, we're never going to be North

> London where the Tube network was easier to build

> in comparison to the clay ridden ground we have

> down here.

>

> While I have sympathy for antantant's situation,

> there are plenty of buses to Victoria from QRP.

>

> If the so called politicians really gave a damn

> about the beloved SLL, more should have been done

> at Parliament to pressure the then Labour

> government and by Southwark which I recall at the

> time of the announcement was part of a Tory and

> wait for it LIB DEM coalition!

>

> Sadly politics plays a role in the supposed simple

> role of getting people to work with both Labour

> and Tory Boris claiming credit for the East London

> line extension, yet as soon as it was clear the

> SLL wasn't going to be saved, nothing from the

> local politicians who are quick to take credit for

> anything positive.

I still experience a wait of 20-30 minutes for a bus from LL to Denmark hill or ED. (this happened last week and I had even checked the live departures on TFL before I left).

I live past dulwich library and don't use FH or HOP mainly because they are in zone 3 (extra cost). The only bus that goes to HOP (P13) from where I live arrives infrequently. There is no direct bus to herne hill or brixton. The bus 63 can't find its way to HOP station.

Yesterday I waited for the 9.21 train from ED. It was apparently delayed until 9.33 (when the next train was due)The 9.33 arrived at 9.35 so I am not sure where the 9.21 "disappeared" to.

I read the brockley blogspot regularly and before the ELL arrived they had the same anxieties about the reduced London bridge services but it appears to have worked well and overall there is an increased frequency of trains.

[James Barber]

Hi BicBasher,

All Southwark Councillors of whatever political persuasion have campaigned to keep the SLL.

The decision was made by the Tory Mayor of London and the Labour DoT SoS a number of years ago. Both blamed each other.

Hi LondonMix,

Closing SLL will release slots into Victoria and London Bridge. The former will be used for longer trains increaisng congestion at Victoria.

In my mind the question is how do facilties such as railway lines splitting communities with viaducts and cutting compensate the communities they pass through causing dislocation and social and economic harm. Tradionally they've provided public service such as the SLL. in the US they pay local councils rates.

[antantant]

Busses are not an alternative. I know the world doesn't revolve around me, but as an anecdote, on Tuesday this week, the 1704 from Victoria to Dartford was cancelled at the last second. Because it is pre-december, the Mrs could instead get the 1711 SLL to Peckham Rye and still pick up our little man before the nursery shut and the police were called.

Come December, we have no fall back plan. Bus takes FOREVER at that time and our only alternative will be to maybe get the Herne Hill train and bus from there, or Train to clapham Junction and then ELL. Nightmare either way, probably not going to make it in time. We really don't know what is going to happen, and are not looking forward to it.

But hey, on the positive side, it will be much easier for us to get to Surrey Quays on the ELL once every two weeks to get our Cafe East fix.

Anyway I'm not dissing the ELL, I think it's a great addition. But I don't see why it has to be instead of the SLL, and in fact I think the timing smells fishy, encouraging us to see them as a trade off when in fact, they should be complimentary.

Even as a trade, personally, I think it's a bad one. We've swapped two slots at Heathrow for a slot at Stansted. The home counties must be cackling! I'm pragmatic and utilitarian enough to realise that some people will win out of this, but it's certainly not me.

[JohnL]

Definitely something going on - lots of engineers on the track and timetables being changed through 'unexplained' delays to leave big gaps then 3 trains in 10 minutes (this is the Luton-Seven Oaks line). ELLE ?.

[LondonMix]

Antantanat if your train gets cancelled why don't you take the district line from Victoria to Blackfriars and then straight on to Peckham Rye? I think you'll find that should still be a fairly quick non-bus alternative when the Victoria service gets cancelled.

James, where is your evidence for claiming that the new transport changes will create a net social and economic harm? Also can you elaborate on the viaducts and splitting communities? The South London stations (Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Queens Road Peckham) will be better connected to each other than before as they will have 8 trains an hour running between them with really well spaced gaps. A two minute train to Peckham Rye usually every 5 minutes opens up additional connections / transfer opportunities to the wider community.

Regarding antantants question, according to travel watch the redevelopment of London Bridge over the next few years for the Thameslink means that the SLL won?t be able to call there. That seems to be fairly well accepted logistical constraint and this will temporarily affect lots of train lines abilities to call at London Bridge over the medium term. What some rail groups were proposing was to supplement to connections to Victoria that would be lost by closing the SLL by creating a Victoria ? Bellingham route that would provide an additional 2 trains including in the evenings and Sunday. This was abandoned apparently because of funding issues.

The question is should the government fund the creation of this new Victoria- Bellingham route. The ELLX might reduce demand on Victoria line services depending on how many users of the line will benefit by being able to get to places like Westminster for example on the Jubilee line instead. It won?t be clear until we see what new travel patterns emerge as a result of the new connections that will now be available. While I would prefer to have the ELLX and the new Victoria-Bellingham route, I think the responsible thing would be to wait and see how necessary it is before spending the capital.

I wish our politicians, instead of simply condemning a complex change, would lay out what realistic alternatives they want to push for and what case they have for it. For example, do they believe that there is in fact capacity at London Bridge during the Thameslink work and if there isn?t, do they believe there is another service into London Bridge that could be sacrificed without causing more disruption than the current proposal? Or do they think Thameslink shouldn?t go ahead? Regarding the Victoria-Bellingham line, have they asked for any cost benefit analysis to be produced?

The attitude of nothing can ever change no matter how rational the changes are is irresponsible. The costs and benefits need to be considered and the whole thing needs to be discussed in a way designed to inform the people affected rather than just trying to rile them up.

[Lowlander]

Most of the people complaining should be thankful this is not the 1960s, when whole lines were lifted and services withdrawn altogether.

Antantanat what would she have done had she missed the 1704 and the 1711 been cancelled?

To me it seems that there's minimal change to Victoria users, the trains from Victoria to Peckham Rye are every half hour with a 2 minute gap between departures (looking now, the next departures are 1139 and 1141, with the next ones at 1209 and 1211).

I can't see that a 6 minute journey from Victoria to Clapham Junction, with a max 15 minute connection and additional 15 minute journey time to Peckham Rye is unreasonable, although you may as well wait for the next direct service.

[James Barber]

Hi LondonMix,

Sadly the London Bridge redeveoplement was approved even though it is at variance to the Southwark Plan - in essence the Southwark Plan says any planning permission would only be given if it improved rail services for Southwark railway stations - which it doesnt.

The dislocation caused by viaducts etc is obvious. If you look at a map the streetscape is limited by the need to bridges or underpasses. Where we have such we see great incidences of crime. Classis example is that the riverside improvements don;t go further south than the railway viaducts - i.e. huge social and economic harm is caused tovarious Southwark communities. So to then have services removed...

[Torben Pieknik]

LondonMix's alternative of PR to Blackfriars then District and Circle to Victoria is a good option. I use it now when the poorly spaced Southern and South Eastern services don't work timewise or are up the spout. It doesn't add much time to my journey but cuts out the nursery pickup stress.

The South London Line v East London Line debate is a nonsense anyway. If we weren't getting the ELL we would still be losing the SLL. But the East London Line will help mitigate losing the South London Line and there are other options to get to Victoria (other than the bus) which don't add a huge amount of time to journeys.

[Medley]

Quite right Torben.

James Barber, I have no idea what you're on about with regards to London B. Do you?

By Southwark railway station, do you mean Southwark Tube station, or railway stations in Southwark? Anyway, the remodelling of London B will - South London Line aside - massively boost services for people all over south London, and there is a hope that once the refurb is finished the South London Line could return (I've no idea if this would happen, just heard it said that it could. Would seem to me a classic London Overground service itself, as is the outer circle via Crystal Palace).

As for viaducts, I'm not clear what you mean there either. How on Earth could London B function without viaducts? How could Thameslink function without viaducts? I can see they have big and potentially detrimental impact at street level, but surely more viaducts suitable mitigated is a small price to pay for vastly improved rail services?

[James Barber]

Hi Medley,

I think fundementally we disagree. ELL2 is great for a minority of people who live in Southwark. the Loss of the SLL will harm many more Southwark residents and local hospitals. Telling people to take a train to Clapham and change - but the people who will use ELL2 could have taken a train and changed but the ELL2 is constructed to avoid that.

Southwark railway stations - apols for missing s.

SLL would seem a great Overground route. But I've not heard any talk from Boris about reopening it later. I hope it is reopened but some people will have made live changing decisions about whether to move away from Camberwell or not by then. I think it risks Camberwell and Denmark Hill areas being denuded of people who can choose to move leaving a rump of people wealthy enough it makes no difference or those with no such choices. ie. they become less mixed communities.

My point about viaducts is that some recompense for the harm they do to communities should occur and keeping basic rail services operating for those communities is a bare minimum for me. Swapping SLL for ELL2 is negative for Southwark.

[Medley]

James, on this bit:

I think fundementally we disagree. ELL2 is great for a minority of people who live in Southwark. the Loss of the SLL will harm many more Southwark residents and local hospitals. Telling people to take a train to Clapham and change - but the people who will use ELL2 could have taken a train and changed but the ELL2 is constructed to avoid that.

You will actually find me in complete agreement. It should be what you call ELL2 plus retention of the South London Line, that's my view.

On viaducts, I still don't get it - are you proposing demolishing existing ones?

[pk]

James Barber Wrote:

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> ELL2 is great for a minority of people who live in Southwark.

> the Loss of the SLL will harm many more Southwark

> residents and local hospitals.

you got any actual facts or figures around this?

i'd imagined that it was the other way round

[Torben Pieknik]

But James you keep on with the myth that it was SLL v ELL. It wasn't and isn't. The South London Line is being removed due to the London Bridge redevelopment. ELL Phase 2 would be happening whether the SLL was being removed or not. Network Rail timetable changes occur twice a year hence the changes happening at the same time.

Of course it would be great to have both services, but the ELL will open up lots of journey options with new connections to the Tube.

London Overground services have done lots for the new areas the line now serves and it will for our part of London. Yes the removal of SLL is a loss, but you should be encouraging your constituents to take a look at the options the East London Line opens up not dismissing it outright.

[LondonMix]

Agree entirely with this post.

Torben Pieknik Wrote:

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> But James you keep on with the myth that it was

> SLL v ELL. It wasn't and isn't. The South London

> Line is being removed due to the London Bridge

> redevelopment. ELL Phase 2 would be happening

> whether the SLL was being removed or not. Network

> Rail timetable changes occur twice a year hence

> the changes happening at the same time.

>

> Of course it would be great to have both services,

> but the ELL will open up lots of journey options

> with new connections to the Tube.

>

> London Overground services have done lots for the

> new areas the line now serves and it will for our

> part of London. Yes the removal of SLL is a loss,

> but you should be encouraging your constituents to

> take a look at the options the East London Line

> opens up not dismissing it outright.

[the-e-dealer]

I am writing to give you advanced notice that on Sunday 9 December, the final section of the London Overground connecting Highbury & Islington and Clapham Junction will open, completing the London Overground circle.

The new link will connect Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction via Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road. You will be able to travel to Canary Wharf via Canada Water, with trains up to every 15 minutes, while avoiding Zone 1.

For more information, please visit tfl.gov.uk/overground

[Bic Basher]

Worth remembering that the current SLL is badly timetabled when it was most needed, during the peaks with those two carriage services being a few minutes behind the Southeastern services which take the bulk of DH and PR passengers to Victoria.

In an ideal world there would be 4tph from the ELL and the existing 2tph on the SLL to Victoria, but that was never going to happen. For most, they'll see an improvement in service with less waiting time on platforms and more connections than was previously available.

Since when did we become such a want now society that a 35 min bus ride to Victoria is now considered FOREVER? Try living in a part of this country where we have deregulated buses and in some cases no late night services and a long wait for public transport where there is no public body to ensure they're operated to a certain time. We're lucky to have what we have and are soon to have from December in comparison!

[Zebedee Tring]

I totally agree, Bic Basher.

[Applespider]

Bic Basher Wrote:

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> Since when did we become such a want now society

> that a 35 min bus ride to Victoria is now

> considered FOREVER?

Well - if you've been used to a 9 minute train trip, it's quite a bit longer. And traffic on New Camberwell Road means that it's often longer than 35 minutes since the bus lanes along that stretch aren't great. In the mornings, it can easily take the better part of an hour to get from Denmark Hill to Victoria. Of course, when everything is running smoothly, it takes 20 minutes or so and it's fine. I'm fortunate in that I rarely take the train to Victoria these days; I cycle there instead and can control my arrival time. I do remember those halcyon days a few years ago where we had 6tph to Victoria during morning peak... bliss.

[Bic Basher]

Applespider Wrote:

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> Bic Basher Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Since when did we become such a want now

> society

> > that a 35 min bus ride to Victoria is now

> > considered FOREVER?

>

> Well - if you've been used to a 9 minute train

> trip, it's quite a bit longer. And traffic on New

> Camberwell Road means that it's often longer than

> 35 minutes since the bus lanes along that stretch

> aren't great. In the mornings, it can easily take

> the better part of an hour to get from Denmark

> Hill to Victoria. Of course, when everything is

> running smoothly, it takes 20 minutes or so and

> it's fine. I'm fortunate in that I rarely take

> the train to Victoria these days; I cycle there

> instead and can control my arrival time. I do

> remember those halcyon days a few years ago where

> we had 6tph to Victoria during morning peak...

> bliss.

When I haven't been able to afford the train to work, I've used the 176 and the 185 to work. It does take longer, no-one will deny that, yet the point is I was able to adapt my communing times. At least we have the option to use rail or bus. We're not an outer London suburb where the only choice is rail or 2-3 change of bus a day to commute into Central London.

There are some Zone 1 and 2 destinations I'd never consider using rail for, Elephant, Pimlico, Oval, Vauxhall and yes Victoria, I'd only use the bus for.

As posted in another thread, London Travelwatch have posted an excellent detailed guide to alternative travel methods for SLL passengers, which also includes bus alternatives. When you read that, it shows you how many alternatives we have to rail. Remember, London has an integrated public transport system and all methods should be considered when making your commute.