Dulwich LSP Phase 2 - No access for cars Townley Road to East Dulwich Road from 22 October

[Metallic]

legalalien Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Did anyone mention militant cyclists?

>

> I think there's a strong tendency in all areas for

> the council just to speak to the "usual suspects".

> Take the climate emergency. The council's

> strategy papers are full of statements about the

> need to consult fully, engage, educate, bring

> everyone along for the ride. Yet so far they've

> set up a Partnerships Steering Group to act as an

> adviser / give input on the strategy - described

> as "a group of local residents, partners,

> interest groups and others with an interest and

> expertise in this area to provide advice to the

> Cabinet Member and the Council." Has anyone heard

> about this body being set up? I suspect few have.

> Does anyone know who is on it? I've spent some

> time googling without success, I will email the

> councillor. Then there's some consultation,

> including the online one I've posted to earlier

> that noone was told about. The decision was to

> "promote the online portal as part of our

> corporate communications through this period, we

> will also use known groups within the council such

> as those that work with young people, BAME groups,

> interest groups, community groups and others to

> promote the hub". Deliberately or not - this is

> not a conspiracy theory - the Council tends to

> consult and involve only those within its bubble.

> It might just be because it's cheaper and easier,

> but that doesn't make it OK. How hard would it

> be, for example, to post information on sites such

> as the EDF and get to a wider range of people?

>

> http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s89020

> /Additional%20Consultation%20Information%20Ltr%20f

> rom%20Cabinet%20Member%20for%20Environment%20Trans

> port%20and%20the%20Clim.pdf

All this is buried, and the groups they want to take part are already informed and invited. Paranoia? No, just fact.

[first mate]

Metallic, I agree, from some of the pro-closure lobby there is a sense of smug moral superiority combined with a complete lack of empathy for any perspective that does not align with theirs. They have decided the the order of priorities and believe they have the absolute right to impose this on everyone else, so pretty much any sort of manipulation and distortions are justified. An approach like this will never work and simply fuels tensions. It is also undemocratic. Real and lasting change generally requires more time, thought and consultation. This is an inconvenient aspect of living in a democracy.

This is not to say that the majority of us do not want to reduce pollution and car ownership but it is complex.

[Nigello]

Re the consultation groups ? perhaps there?s too much consultation, or at least too much consulting of the usual suspects. Folk on these groups are often self appointed, fixated on one issue and think, just because they?re being consulted, their view is sacrosanct. Much better would be random consultation, perhaps with a gift voucher incentive to give one?s views, across varied localities in any one borough. Councils need input, obviously, but not from ?professional consultees?.

[legalalien]

I like the idea of random consultation. What I will say is that the zoom calls necessitated by COVID are much easier to access / understand than some of the slightly incoherent video recordings of some meetings in the past, and a great way of reaching those with work/ childcare commitments who find it hard to attend public meetings. I really hope they keep them going.

[heartblock]

I think Firstmate reflects my thoughts. I?m not ?against? LTNs I?m against increases in traffic and pollution on other residential, school roads caused by poor planning of LTNs.

When I look on Twitter I see photos from the ?lobby? of almost exclusively middle class white children in areas of a million+ housing, playing and cycling in car free roads. If the ?lobby? was honest and also reflected and posted photos of LL and EDG during times of idling traffic pumping out fumes, during the school run it would be a realistic view of the current state of play.

To witness small children walking and in pushchairs breathing in car fumes on EDG during these times of increased pedestrian travel is heartbreaking and probably illegal in terms of pollution levels.

It?s a question of inequality that has been caused by a Labour council, I?m ashamed I voted for them.

[Rockets]

It is incredibly complex. Much of the criticism I have of the pro-closure lobby is that they start from a position of "well everyone can cycle so why don't they". I consider my family to be very lucky that we have a nice house with a small garden and we fully appreciate that not everyone is as lucky as we are.

At the weekend we went for a family cycle and I spent 45 minutes levering myself and various kids bikes into various yoga-like positions to get the bikes out of the garden, up the stairs into our kitchen and through our house to get out (we, like a lot of people do not have a side-return). We had a lovely cycle through Dulwich Village and whilst on this cycle it occurred to me that much of the pro-closure noise is coming from people who live in the biggest houses in the area, who have side returns or bike storage boxes in their front-gardens, many of whom can spend ?6,000 on a family cargo bike to transport the kids to school each day. This is just not the reality of most people's lives. Dulwich is an outlier - it is not at all reflective of life in London and many of the bike lobby forget that not everyone lives the privileged existence many of them do. Yet they speak as if everyone can go and jump on a bike.

Cycling remains dominated by white, middle-class men and whilst efforts are being made to make it much more inclusive I can't help but think that moving it out of the middle-class demographic is going to be the biggest challenge of all as so much about cycling is about accessibility - i.e. your ability to store your own bikes. The large majority of people do not have that option.

At the beginning of the last lockdown all of the residents on our street registered to try and get one of those bike rack things but we hear the council won't be installing anymore and there are years of waiting lists for the others - so at a time when the council is telling people don't use your cars - they are doing little to help people to make the transition.

Yes they are closing roads but what happens if only 1% of the population in the area are able to store bikes - it doesn't solve the problem it makes it worse.

I see a lot of #modalshift pictures from the pro-closure lobby but they are of predominantly white middle class families pottering around some of the poshest streets in London - there was one last week of two families on electric cargo bikes and I looked online and was completely shocked at how expensive they are - (you won't get much change from ?5000 for the most basic one).

And this is where it is complicated and where the pro-closure lobby do nothing to help their cause as they fail to acknowledge the challenges most people face in making a shift to other means of transport. Ironically these lockdowns do more to get people out on their bikes than any road closures - the reason, because people are living their lives in a 2 mile bubble from their house - they are not having to go to work etc. But, as we have seen in a normal world people's bubbles are much wider than that and the moment lockdown ends people start venturing further afield and can't do those journeys on bike or foot.

[legalalien]

Rockets - am currently watching last night's Overview and Scrutiny Committe meeting (it's long but I would recommend it - it's councillors having a Q and A with the new council leader Kieron Williams and covers a wide variety of issues relevant to Southwark, its post COVID finances, cladding issues, divestment of fossil fuel investments from council pension funds, the bakerloo line extension (just seen an interesting exchange where one of the councillors suggested that although listed as a response to the climate emergency, the emissions caused in the construction process were likely to take about 35 years to recover through the benefoit... And, bike storage has had a special mention, it is on the council's agenda for sure. They're looking to double it initially (can't remember timeline) but ultimately make it accessible to all.

[Metallic]

I am not against cyclists, family cycling, lowering pollution and increasing walking and exercise. What I am against is the lobby that makes all of us who want the junction reopened and timed entry, to make us villains in our own home area, it annoys the socks off me.

Live and let live. Spread the traffic load and paint more cycle lanes if that would help. Displacement is the curse. The local cycling lobby do not care about this at all.

[JohnL]

Painting cycle lanes is not what the guidance says though - they must be segregated and existing painted ones will also be replaced by segregated ones eventually.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/cycle-lanes-road-traffic-segregation-england-safety-575846

Maybe we could build up :)

[legalalien]

Still watching last night's OSC meeting on and off. They've just discussed the most recent version of the council's performance reports for 2019/20 which are in the doc below - really interesting as a point by point analysis of all the things Southwark is trying to achieve. From about 1:50 onward it gets into a discussion about the fact that a number of the targets need to be more measurable and reporting needs to be a bit better than "in progress" - the new leader seems reasonably on board with this. And the chair of the scrutiny commission is recommending quarterly reporting. Sounds like they've found it difficult to perform their role based on data provided. All good developments IMHO.

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/g6738/Public%20reports%20pack%20Monday%2009-Nov-2020%2018.30%20Overview%20Scrutiny%20Committee.pdf?T=10

[FairTgirl]

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is incredibly complex. Much of the criticism I

> have of the pro-closure lobby is that they start

> from a position of "well everyone can cycle so why

> don't they". I consider my family to be very lucky

> that we have a nice house with a small garden and

> we fully appreciate that not everyone is as lucky

> as we are.

>

> At the weekend we went for a family cycle and I

> spent 45 minutes levering myself and various kids

> bikes into various yoga-like positions to get the

> bikes out of the garden, up the stairs into our

> kitchen and through our house to get out (we, like

> a lot of people do not have a side-return). We had

> a lovely cycle through Dulwich Village and whilst

> on this cycle it occurred to me that much of the

> pro-closure noise is coming from people who live

> in the biggest houses in the area, who have side

> returns or bike storage boxes in their

> front-gardens, many of whom can spend ?6,000 on a

> family cargo bike to transport the kids to school

> each day. This is just not the reality of most

> people's lives. Dulwich is an outlier - it is not

> at all reflective of life in London and many of

> the bike lobby forget that not everyone lives the

> privileged existence many of them do. Yet they

> speak as if everyone can go and jump on a bike.

>

> Cycling remains dominated by white, middle-class

> men and whilst efforts are being made to make it

> much more inclusive I can't help but think that

> moving it out of the middle-class demographic is

> going to be the biggest challenge of all as so

> much about cycling is about accessibility - i.e.

> your ability to store your own bikes. The large

> majority of people do not have that option.

>

> At the beginning of the last lockdown all of the

> residents on our street registered to try and get

> one of those bike rack things but we hear the

> council won't be installing anymore and there are

> years of waiting lists for the others - so at a

> time when the council is telling people don't use

> your cars - they are doing little to help people

> to make the transition.

>

> Yes they are closing roads but what happens if

> only 1% of the population in the area are able to

> store bikes - it doesn't solve the problem it

> makes it worse.

>

> I see a lot of #modalshift pictures from the

> pro-closure lobby but they are of predominantly

> white middle class families pottering around some

> of the poshest streets in London - there was one

> last week of two families on electric cargo bikes

> and I looked online and was completely shocked at

> how expensive they are - (you won't get much

> change from ?5000 for the most basic one).

>

> And this is where it is complicated and where the

> pro-closure lobby do nothing to help their cause

> as they fail to acknowledge the challenges most

> people face in making a shift to other means of

> transport. Ironically these lockdowns do more to

> get people out on their bikes than any road

> closures - the reason, because people are living

> their lives in a 2 mile bubble from their house -

> they are not having to go to work etc. But, as we

> have seen in a normal world people's bubbles are

> much wider than that and the moment lockdown ends

> people start venturing further afield and can't do

> those journeys on bike or foot.

I am sure I heard that the waiting list for a space in a cycle hanger is 700, possibly even 7000. Either way it's alot. Storage is a large aspect of people taking up cycling and sticking with it. A family of bikes take up alot of room, we recently put cycle storage at the front of our house as we couldn't get past the front door with them (no side gate either) but you constantly worry about it getting broken into as neighbours have been.

This is definitely a prong of a multi-pronged approach required. I note that Dog Kennel Estate of flats has quite a few cycle hangers - which is great - especially as it is near ED station also.

I think you can apply for space in hangers not necessarily nearest to your home if they are convenient for other reasons, eg close to a train station.

[redpost]

During the great double yellow debate, I seem to remember a fair few objections to cycle hangers on the road taking away car parking spaces, or perhaps I'm getting my rants mixed up?

[Rockets]

redpost Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> During the great double yellow debate, I seem to

> remember a fair few objections to cycle hangers on

> the road taking away car parking spaces, or

> perhaps I'm getting my rants mixed up?

I do think you are getting your rants mixed up as the double yellow line debate was more to do with the council extending double yellows to the legally permitted maximum to remove as many parking spaces as possible - even Cllr Barber admitted as much at the time I believe.

But, is it a rant or are people pointing out the hypocrisy of the council that whilst they wage war on cars do little to help facilitate the transition for more of the community. Or are you happy that cycling remains only accessible to the most privileged and well off in our community?

Please discuss.......

[northernmonkey]

Cargo bikes are very very expensive - though no where near as expensive as you've outlined here. I'd love an urban arrow cargo bike but a) they're about 4.5k (for the e assist family model, and b) i don't really need one day to day - but they're kind of the top end of pricing so unless you're getting something bespoke or for a business then around 4k is the most people would spend. I think though that if you were looking for a family car or a small second car then a cargo bike is comparable.

Also worth flagging that Southwark council is one of the councils who have partnered with the amazing Peddle My Wheels and you can rent a cargo bike with e assist (good for dealing with local hills) for about ?100 per month and if you keep it long enough to pay off the purchase cost, its yours!

There is undoubtedly an issue re storage. For those with small front gardens perhaps ground anchors are an option, but none of it is ideal. We need much more secure cycle parking - so more cycle hoops with better security and some options for non standard bikes too - including cargo or those with child seats.

Not sure where the info of the 'council aren't getting any more 'bike stores came from. The target is to double the current number on street but this is no where near enough and hopefully something that can be addressed. The waiting lists are very long currently and all new hangers are oversubscribed.

Finally Rockets - i know it makes for a good story - but 45 mins? What were you doing, wheeling the bikes through the west wing? walking them round the lake and through the formal gardens? I don't doubt that its not so convenient having bikes stored around the back of the house - its why sometimes people take the trade off at the front if possible - ie worries about security vs massively increased convenience, but think you're possibly overplaying it!

Rockets Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is incredibly complex. Much of the criticism I

> have of the pro-closure lobby is that they start

> from a position of "well everyone can cycle so why

> don't they". I consider my family to be very lucky

> that we have a nice house with a small garden and

> we fully appreciate that not everyone is as lucky

> as we are.

>

> At the weekend we went for a family cycle and I

> spent 45 minutes levering myself and various kids

> bikes into various yoga-like positions to get the

> bikes out of the garden, up the stairs into our

> kitchen and through our house to get out (we, like

> a lot of people do not have a side-return). We had

> a lovely cycle through Dulwich Village and whilst

> on this cycle it occurred to me that much of the

> pro-closure noise is coming from people who live

> in the biggest houses in the area, who have side

> returns or bike storage boxes in their

> front-gardens, many of whom can spend ?6,000 on a

> family cargo bike to transport the kids to school

> each day. This is just not the reality of most

> people's lives. Dulwich is an outlier - it is not

> at all reflective of life in London and many of

> the bike lobby forget that not everyone lives the

> privileged existence many of them do. Yet they

> speak as if everyone can go and jump on a bike.

>

> Cycling remains dominated by white, middle-class

> men and whilst efforts are being made to make it

> much more inclusive I can't help but think that

> moving it out of the middle-class demographic is

> going to be the biggest challenge of all as so

> much about cycling is about accessibility - i.e.

> your ability to store your own bikes. The large

> majority of people do not have that option.

>

> At the beginning of the last lockdown all of the

> residents on our street registered to try and get

> one of those bike rack things but we hear the

> council won't be installing anymore and there are

> years of waiting lists for the others - so at a

> time when the council is telling people don't use

> your cars - they are doing little to help people

> to make the transition.

>

> Yes they are closing roads but what happens if

> only 1% of the population in the area are able to

> store bikes - it doesn't solve the problem it

> makes it worse.

>

> I see a lot of #modalshift pictures from the

> pro-closure lobby but they are of predominantly

> white middle class families pottering around some

> of the poshest streets in London - there was one

> last week of two families on electric cargo bikes

> and I looked online and was completely shocked at

> how expensive they are - (you won't get much

> change from ?5000 for the most basic one).

>

> And this is where it is complicated and where the

> pro-closure lobby do nothing to help their cause

> as they fail to acknowledge the challenges most

> people face in making a shift to other means of

> transport. Ironically these lockdowns do more to

> get people out on their bikes than any road

> closures - the reason, because people are living

> their lives in a 2 mile bubble from their house -

> they are not having to go to work etc. But, as we

> have seen in a normal world people's bubbles are

> much wider than that and the moment lockdown ends

> people start venturing further afield and can't do

> those journeys on bike or foot.

[Rockets]

NorthhernMonkey - I can assure you I am not over-playing it - it takes 45 minutes for me to get my family's bikes out of our garden (hidden under our balcony for security and weathering purposes), up over said balcony into our kitchen and then through the house. We can't the bikes out front because we have no room for them as the bins are there.

The people who can afford ?4.5k for a cargo bike or have the space to store it is so small. I am jealous of those who can.

The reference to the council not getting anymore bike storage was based on the the message I, and my neighbours, received form the website you register your interest for bike hangers which said something along the lines of the council has no plans to install bike hangers in your area please join the waiting list for one of the other ones. I also heard that the council wants some answers from the bike hanger manufacturers about safety given the spate of thefts from them recently.

Does anyone know if any new hangers have gone in since lockdown? I did hear Cllr Williams say they want to double the number of cycle storage on the recent council meeting but the video glitched at that point and he seemed to say by 2022. I think they need to do it quicker than that if 2022 is the target date. Surely some of the LTN money could have been put to that use?

Also, does anyone know if the council put any new bike racks in on Lordship Lane? It was one of the suggestions generated following Cllr McAsh's request for ideas.

I just think if the council if truly committed to encouraging a modal shift they have to be doing more to cater for those people who don't live in big houses with lots of garden space to store their bikes.

[malumbu]

Re: bike parking

From "Gear change .... government's cycling and walking bold vision" Extracted the relevant paragraph; sorry don't know how to highlight the stuff on residential bike parking.... (admin it would be useful to use bold or colour on text) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/904146/gear-change-a-bold-vision-for-cycling-and-walking.pdf

"We will increase cycle parking and ensure that it goes where it is needed We will install more cycle racks in town and city centres and where they are most needed, including at transport interchanges and public buildings including hospitals and schools. Cycle racks should not be installed where they are unlikely to be used and we will promote the importance of high quality, accessible and secure designs that will encourage increased use and discourage theft. In residential areas, we will fund more bike hangars and other secure on-street storage, for people who do not have space to keep their bikes at home. We will continue to work with key stakeholders to develop new standards for sufficient secure bike storage in all new residential and non-residential developments."

[Juno70]

All the Townley Road coaches will be able to go through the new lights . I think Clean Air Dulwich and Our Healthy Streets got this all nicely sewn up.

[Juno70]

Grant Snapps announced yesterday another ?175 million for LTNs/Walking and Cycling but on condition that Councis consult local businesses and communities first. If you disagree with these new traffic measures you must keep complaining the the Highways people and your local council and better still get a Residential Association together and or join One Dulwich. For some bizarre reason the government and Southwark think the majority of people are in favour of these road closures.

[womanofdulwich]

I think we need bike racks at the court lane entrance to Dulwich park. Any ideas who to e mail?

I'm not a great fan of bike racks that are not overlooked

[northernmonkey]

Might be a good time to remind people who makes decisions locally.

Southwark council has responsibility for non tfl / non dulwich estate roads. Therefore it is the council who plan and make road changes.

Residents elect councillors

Our healthy streets was a council run project to address the streets in Dulwich. It?s not a body that proposes anything.

Then you have residents associations and other groups including ones like clean air for dulwich / Southwark cyclists etc who will depending on the scheme either look to support via their group or push for more change. Neither group makes decisions, that is the role of Southwark Council. The Dulwich Society is also informed of measures as another means of accessing local views / community engagement. Since the Dulwich changes have gone in ?one dulwich? have also had multiple meetings with the councillors and Southwark traffic planners as per their website updates.

Juno70 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> All the Townley Road coaches will be able to go

> through the new lights . I think Clean Air Dulwich

> and Our Healthy Streets got this all nicely sewn

> up.

[legalalien]

I think maybe Juno means Living Streets Dulwich which is one of the other campaign groups?

[Metallic]

Southwark think this is sewn up. We will see about that! It is outrageous that blue badge holders cannot go through the bus gates in DV. To say there is a way in to every road is ludicrous. Of course there is a way in, providing you want to sit for an hour in the traffic on Lordship Lane or East Dulwich Grove.

[mrwb]

We are go on this I think?

Signs have been uncovered on Townley road, 8-10am and 3-6pm it's a no go area for cars.

[Rockets]

From tomorrow morning I think....I am sure we will see some grandstanding from the usual suspects when it goes live.

Let the fun begin......let's see what the displacement is like and who loses the displacement lottery with these latest closures.......place your bets.....

[legalalien]

Croxted Road is an early loser. Plus all the motorists who?ve fallen victim to the poor signage on Gallery Road / Turney Road eastbound and Burbage towards the village... there were loads going through the bus gates at the roundabout this afternoon... I assume someone from the Council will be monitoring and will fix? Or is there any merit in emailing someone? I can?t imagine they want lots of unsolicited emails...?