An apology to all the mums (and dads) Of ED

[midivydale]

Saffrons thread got me thinking (dangerous thing i know). So here goes.

To each and everyone of you parents who i have ever rolled my eyes at, glared at, made faces at and (oh the shame) made huffing and puffing noises at when your children have cried, screamed or even made the slightest noise.

I am so very sorry.

I didnt know any better, i was naive (and hugely jealous of your kids not that i would have admit it).

I am so so sorry.

I sometimes asked to ve seated somewhere else in coffeehops or bars when people with children being children "ruined" my me time.

Oh dear

Let us just say, with a reflux baby who has cried ALOT i gor what i deserved.

If you ever recognise me (probably not as i am far fry from my former self) then Please feel free to gloat or say i told you so.

C xx

[Rook]

I'm sure most mums and dads, including myself, cringe at similar memories in the days before babies, so don't feel too bad! ...along with thinking agghh itll be easy!!Guess its just one of those things you have to experience before you can ever really gain any true understanding or empathy ( as with lots of other things no doubt)

Lovely post though, very well meant.....good luck!!!

Ps. Now i only hate my baby crying but I'm fine if it's someone else's !

[Loz]

Heh heh. Being child-free means never having to say you are sorry.

[silverfox]

I think you'll find lots of people with children are embarrassed by other parents.

I once had the misfortune to fly back from Chicago to London with what I will call a child with a baby onboard. For six or so miserable hours she insisted on walking up and down the aisle with her breast hanging out trying to force a jet-leggemd, exhausted, child to suckle her when the child was obviously fast asleep. Attention seeking or what?

[maxxi]

silverfox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I once had the misfortune to fly back from Chicago

> to London with what I will call a child with a

> baby onboard. For six or so miserable hours she

> insisted on walking up and down the aisle with her

> breast hanging out trying to force a jet-leggemd,

> exhausted, child to suckle her when the child was

> obviously fast asleep. Attention seeking or what?

Are you sure this wasn't just a new optional extra from Virgin Air?

[silverfox]

Good question. Perhaps I was charged extra for this excruciating performance

[LondonLogCo]

>I sometimes asked to ve seated somewhere else in coffeehops or bars when people with children being children "ruined" my me time. <

Don't worry, you'll be back to your old self in no time. My boys are 8 -12 and I've reverted to type as illustrated above.

Most refreshing to be back in the old skin.

I even told a child to be quiet in the library the other day.

"Oi, keep the noise down, people are trying to concentrate you know"

Marvelous.

[Nanny]

It's a tough moral dilemma that I battle with regularly as I see both sides. I'm new to the area and keen to experience the great cafes, pubs, bars and restaurants in the area. I know this is not limited to ED but it seems no place, even pubs, are a sanctuary to socialise without the distraction of children in some way unless beyond 9pm.

I'm far from being a believer in children being seen and not heard, it is the norm in many countries for children to join their family and friends in restaurants and children learn a great deal of valuable life skills, but I do cringe when common sense and respect for others is totally overlooked and children are at risk of injury and clearly just unhappy in the environment. In an environment where hot food and drinks are being served and children are running around only partially supervised by distracted parents presents real danger to children. Children (particularly in cafes) restrained in buggies, screaming to be unleashed but prevented by the parent/carer is simply cruel. Buggies crammed into entrances and between tables makes it difficult for staff to wait at tables and limits trade, therefore it is not unreasonable to limit the numbers, as they do on buses. I've heard a woman tell a man in a pub one evening to stop swearing while children are present and seen a woman in a cafe change a baby's nappy on a table. Keeping a group of children quietly content at a table in a pub whilst their parents and friends are eating, drinking and conversing is the ultimate challenge.

I concur with the previous post where a child was told to be quiet in a library, it's appropriate and it teaches consideration for others and it's that lack of consideration that prompts the eye rolling and huffing when in the presence of children and parents that seem not to care about others. At risk of being bombarded with comments by disgruntled proud parents, dare I suggest that sometimes socialising with friends at each others homes is more practical, safer and more enjoyable for the children, even if it's just a cup of coffee. Reciprocating babysitting and allowing a couple or friends to have lunch or dinner together without the children is likely to be more relaxing and enjoyable for the adults. It's unlikely a toddler/child requested going out for lunch/dinner and therefore they would have no objection to spending that time an environment fitting their interests.

It's very difficult to have children fit into the lifestyle enjoyed pre-children and it's stressful trying to make that work. I would not want to see a return to the old licensing laws where children were excluded and smokers permitted but equally there's no fun being a bystander to stressed out parents trying to have a social life with unhappy children in tow. Within one generation there's been a huge change in our social culture, I guess in time we'll all adapt and accept so no apologies will be required.

[Ann]

Nanny, that's one of the most intelligent, incisive posts I have seen in a while.

I particularly concur with your suggestion that young families socialise in each others homes, that's what used to happen. When my children were young I always found restaurants rather stressful as the capacity to keep young children occupied was limited. Perhaps some parents aren't willing to compromise on their former lifestyles?

[Strawbs]

Nanny - are you serious? So because I have a baby (a wonderfully behaved one year old I might add) I am no longer allowed to socialise in a pub / cafe??? I went to a birthday lunch today with said child today at a pub and he didn't bother a soul and we left at 5.00 - so what exactly bothers you about that? Do you have children yourself? I wouldn't want to assume you are childless and lecturing parents on how they can socialise with their friends!!

I agree children should not be in a pub in the evening as quite frankly they should be in bed but for me to be relegated to only socialising at friend's houses is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!

[Nanny]

Strawbs, I expected this to touch a nerve with some as it's as controversial to suggest other people's children can be irritating as it is to make negative comments about minorities. I'm not childless and I do have more than 12 months experience of what environments children enjoy and I'd say they enjoy pubs/bars and restaurants as much as they enjoy being taken shopping. If you read my post thoroughly you will see that the context in which it was written was not to lecture or to suggest permanent exclusion until your children can vote, but to think differently about how parents socialise with their children - namely consideration towards the enjoyment being gained by all from their outings, not just the parents.

[Moos]

Nanny and Ann, it is a difficult one, and I agree that it's important to understand and mitigate the impact that one's children have on other people's happiness. Crying, noisy or naughty kids need to be stopped or taken away, and yes that can ruin your own evening or your lunch which is very tough but we all have to live together.

However, it's perhaps a touch unimaginative to propose eating at home as an alternative as though this would never have occurred to any parent. All parents, and particularly stay at home mothers, do an awful lot of eating at home, and also socialising in friends' houses. There is no getting around the change to one's lifestyle after having children, and it is a little unkind to imply that parents are selfish if they are unwilling to sacrifice eating out entirely. Outings in public places are a lovely treat, and in my experience can also be a treat, a change of scene, a feeling of occasion for even small children. They need to be quick, well planned, timed early and ideally with an easy escape route if things go wrong, but in my view they are an important part of children's education. If people sigh and wonder why British children don't seem to know how to behave in restaurants, it is probably because they have not had much experience, because of the disapproval of people expressing views like these.

[Chillaxed]

I'm with Moos on this one. We (that's all y'all) just need to strike a balance. No need to rule pubs and restaurants out completely, and no excuse for going without thought for your little ones or the other punters. We had a quick pint and pizza in the Actress at about 5pm on Saturday: in the designated kids area, loads of other kids around, and as soon as my son tired of playing the adult with his 'pizza' (pitta bread) we chugged the last of our pints and left (me, I admit, with a last, wistful look at the beer pumps).

[MrBen]

Apart from a hazy first memory at the age of 2, I cant honestly remember much until I was about 4 or 5 years old and wouldn't have had any awareness (or cared) where my parents were eating their meals/ had taken me. I certainly hadn't learned anything about table manners etc at that age.

Eating out only got my interest at about 5 years old - but only if it involved jelly and ice cream with my mate Patrick at The Edinburgh Trampoline Centre or a Wimpy kids burger on Princes Street. Like most kids, I didn't really want to sit still at that age, so those places were quick in and outs or I could run around a but when I felt like it. Past 5 I started learning about what it meant to eat out and would ask to be taken to Pizza Hut and it was a treat so I'd start to behave.

I didn't read Nanny's good post above thinking parents shouldn't take their kids out to eat in public and stay at home to eat, just that sometimes, some common sense might be called for on time of day, kids behavior/tiredness beforehand, what the parents themselves want to get out of it etc.

[Michael Palaeologus]

It is the inconsiderate parents that cause the problems for rest. I have no kids and get pissed off tripping over or fighting my way through buggies blocking entrances, pavements and buses. Parents have no right to preferential treatment beyond that of sensible good manners.

If kids are "badly" behaved it is not their fault, it is down to the parents to manage the situation, but manage it they should.

Yesterdays lunch at the Victoria was lovely. Lots of kids running round, with a play room available fot them to let off steam. All good, families and singles happily mixed, plenty of room for all.

[Voyageur]

Very much with Nanny and Michael P.

We went to a pub/restaurant for lunch yesterday which was full to the gills. We had a lovely meal with charming service and a very good bottle of red. About half of the tables had babies or toddlers present which I have no particular issue with, apart from the thick forest of massive bugaboos which blocked walkways and made the serving staff's job a bit of a nightmare.

What I DID have a problem with was the 2-3 tables of adults that thought it was perfectly ok for their tiny offspring to cry/scream loudly for long periods of time, making conversation very difficult and making most there grit their teeth in irritation. If your kid can't be quiet in such an environment either, please either take them outside until they quieten or, as someone suggested, socialise elsewhere with other families in an environment where prolonged crying/tantrums etc. are tolerated.

[BrandNewGuy]

The late lamented Sun And Doves had a sign on the door that read something like: "We allow children into the pub until 7pm, but please be aware that anyone, regardless of age, who shouts, screams, runs around or persistently annoys other customers will be asked to leave." Perfect...

[LondonMix]

There was a thread in the Family Room about The Garden?s Caf? that explored the ?pram issue? in detail. We agreed at times when making decisions about what is best, some parents don?t weigh up how their choice impacts others which is what leads to the accusation of entitlement (whether its prams that can?t easily be folded on the bus or prams that are too large in restaurants etc).

I don?t think anyone has suggested that parents with kids need to stay home. In the US babies and children are often out with their parents and I have memories from a very early age of going out to nice dinners with my parents and their friends.

One of the issues which Nanny highlighted so eloquently is behavior. It really isn?t acceptable to let children run wild in a restaurant and crying babies should be taken out of the dining area and soothed. In my personal experience, most parents around here do exactly that. For young children that often involves bringing things along to entertain them and continually interacting with them. A few bad apples seem so engaged in their adult conversations that they are virtually ignoring their children which is when the worst behavior issues seem to arise.

If you are doing everything you can and your children simply won?t behave in a restaurant I think Nanny is simply suggesting that your children might be unhappy in the setting for a host of reasons and if that?s the case, perhaps it?s unfair to both the kids and other punters to force them to stay.

[Pickle]

Very nicely put LondonMix.

I have small children, and we do go out, occasionally, but to places that are appropriate for them - otherwise I find it's no fun for any of us. If we go out for a meal, we will go at 5pm to somewhere like Si Mangia, Locale, or Sea Cow. We take colouring stuff or the iPad to help keep the older two (5 and 4) entertained while they wait for their food. They are getting to an age where they enjoy going to a restaurant and we are very strict with them in terms of what behaviour is appropriate in that environment.

I often go for coffee during the day with my youngest in tow (10 months), and find that most cafes (the Gardens included) are very welcoming if you go in with the right attitude. I always ask for my drink in a takeaway cup, so that if she gets bored/noisy we can leave and I can still finish my drink.

If we go out in the evening without kids, the last thing I want is to be surrounded by them, so I applaud pubs that have a strict "no kids after 7pm" policy.

It's not rocket science, but I think considerate parenting is something lacking in a lot of people.

[sheilarose]

Here's an idea...

[Pickle]

Love that sign.

One of the worst examples I've seen recently was at Starbucks at Sainsburys during half term. Mother with a child, at least my sons age (so old enough to know better) in the queue throwing an almighty tantrum because Mum had said no to her request for cake. It was busy, so they were in the queue for a while, with the screaming and shouting continuing. Mum finally had enough, but instead of leaving said

"right, darling, that's it - I'm not letting you have chocolate on your babycino"

Gee, that will teach her!

[Chillaxed]

"It's not rocket science, but I think considerate parenting is something lacking in a lot of people."

But a very small minority nonetheless.

[Voyageur]

Chillaxed Wrote:

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> "It's not rocket science, but I think considerate

> parenting is something lacking in a lot of

> people."

>

> But a very small minority nonetheless.

A minority yes, but not a 'very small' one in my experience sadly., although that would have been the case 20-30 years ago.

[Cassius]

Chillaxed Wrote:

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> "It's not rocket science, but I think considerate

> parenting is something lacking in a lot of

> people."

>

> But a very small minority nonetheless.

Sadly though, whether right or wrong it is the few badly behaved/badly parented children that stick out in the memory, not the ones who are well behaved and quiet.

[Otta]

What Nanny, Michael Palaeologus, and LondonMix said!

I am a parent, I love my kids, but even I wince at their racket at times, and I wouldn't want to put everyone else through that. As Michael so rightly says, it's not the majority of parents, it's the inconsiderate parents that cause the problems for rest. Unfortunately, these inconsiderate parents are so noticeable, that people tend to tar all parents with the same brush, because the considerate parents don't get noticed (because they are being considerate).

I wish a couple of businesses in the area would just take the plunge and say they'd rather not have kids in. Of course the Family Room would be up in arms, but why? ED is full of pubs and cafes, would it really be so bad for parents if there was ONE pub that didn't allow kids in?

On that thread about The Gardens Cafe, several people said things like "why shouldn't I enjoy a chat and a coffee in the mornings?". No one said you couldn't, but just have it in one of the MANY other places around, or, go to each other's houses!

Personally I can't for the life of me understand why people take their kids to the pub. I can't relax in the pub when my kids are there, and frankly, the chance to go to the pub these days is a blessed chance to rid myself of them for a couple of hours!