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Thinking of a Twitter argument a few degrees of separation away got me wondering. It was a sort of "I don't hate immigrants but....." in rationalsing their rancour. Not a million miles away from Nige.


It is compulsory in my workplace to have 'unconscious bias' training. On the face of it comes across as a bit nanny state, bleeding heart liberals etc. I of course am not racist, homophobic, trans-phobic, disability phobic etc. But.... you do the training and it makes you think about how you perceive people different to your own identity group (even though you don't necessarily realise this).


So with regards to the "I don't mind immigrants but..." How much deep in the brain is colouring views? Or am I simply more amenable to looking inside my brain and trying to understand how my onions are informed, and hopefully can be challenged, whereas said Twitter would be resistant to this and think it all lefty baloney. And of course said person is articulate, well educated and comes across very informed.

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https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/265948-im-not-a-racist-but/
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Big subject malumbu, and very topical.


The problem I?ve got is the word ?racist? is in danger of becoming meaningless - generally used as an insult these days as a number of the threads on here show.


It?s confusing. For example people are accused of being racist if they attack/disagree with Muslim beliefs/practises But Islam is a religion, not a race. So is Judaism, although it?s clearer if somebody is being anti-Jewish.


Do the ?unconscious bias? trainers actually have a working definition of ?racism??

We are all now conditioned to sort people into 'tribes' in our heads, above all else it seems. This seemingly takes precedence over actually listening to what people are saying, and perhaps taking comments in good faith..rather than assuming teh most extreme interpretation possible of anything with the slightest form of ambiguity.


So something like the phrases you mention are immediately seen as incontrovertible evidence that the person uttering them is racist or xenophobic.


If an 80 year old woman from a village in the Midlands says "I don't mind immigrants, but I do struggle to communicate well with the new village shopkeeper'.......is she Xenophobic? or just highlighting practicality/reality of a society that has changed over the course of her life?....

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------


> If an 80 year old woman from a village in the

> Midlands says "I don't mind immigrants, but I do

> struggle to communicate well with the new village

> shopkeeper'


Immigrant shopkeeper eh, methinks someone needs to sign up to an 'unconscious bias' training course.. :)

Unconscious bias often is defined by race and there is lots of psychological research into this, that we have unconscious aversions to those who do not look like us. Disability is included in that along with ethnicity. For example, we are more likely to define a different culture that also belongs predominantly to people of a different ethnic group by that ethnicity, than we are to one from our own ethnic group. So this is how some people end up tarring all Muslims as the same (when there are fifty different national cultures depending on the Islamic country, and even more depending on the non Islamic countries) but don't apply the same blanket view to the wide range of different Christian denominations in the World.


Struggling to understand a persons speech for example is another good example. There are many dialects/ accents, with all their slang that other Brits would struggle to understand. But a person would never say 'I don't mind scousers, but I do struggle to communicate well with the new village shopkeeper'. It is the need to make a point of someone being 'not of this country' that is the issue, when what the woman could say instead, is that she struggles to understand his accent, and leave the immigrant comment out of it altogether. Language matters.

"But a person would never say 'I don't mind scousers, but I do struggle to communicate well with the new village shopkeeper"


That's a pretty blanket statement, particularly to state so unequivocally.


IN anycase, I disagree. I feel you're reading far too much into the statement. And looking too hard for any possible interpretation which can be read as offensive


I dont mind tall people, but man it hurts my neck to talk to them

I dont mind the Welsh, but I cant understand a word they say after the rugby

I dont mind Americans, but god they can be loud and obnoxious.


In the case of said old lady, there's a case to be made that the prefix is seemingly needed these days because if she just said She struggles to understand the new shopkeeper (who happens to also be an immigrant)...im sure someone would be latching on to her comments and be branding her a racist or a xenophobe.....


Also...clearly the fact that people have different accents is driven by immigration...if people all grew up here they would all sound british....im not 100% sure why raising the fact that this person is an immigrant is a problem.....

The OP was to consider the value of unconscious bias training. In our metropolitan bubble many of us are pretty aware, but even then I found it useful. Also recognising how I (and society) has changed over the years - so a big sorry for all of those clumsy stories I've told over the years without realising potential offence.


This was intended to cover all elements of diversity, including mental health, intelligence, the regions of the UK and this country.


Going back to my childhood where the Black and White minstrels, sit coms featuring camp men (I'm free!) and lampooning those with mental health problems would all be prime time comedy. Most have moved on but there still feels to be a lag.


Picking up of the fictitious example:


I don't mind immigrants, but I do struggle to communicate well with the new village shopkeeper


What about I like new people in my community and I have spent time getting to know them including their accent.


Funnily enough there was a wonderful part of Myra Syal's autobiography where her gran, who speaks no English, comes over and gets on fantastically with the middle aged shop keeper who has a broad black country accent.

well if the trends continue where we all just type on social media and internet forums, then we wont have to worry about accents at all! Furthermore, all our consumables will be delivered to our door, so no need for shopkeepers either......utopia!!......or perhaps not....but that's another story for another time....



Back to Malumbu's topic at hand...I personally feel that unconscious bias training is like most other 'soft-skill' training courses. You spend far too long in the training room, with 90% of it being of little use/irrelevant/occasionally ridiculous...but everyone probably picks up one or two little snippets of how to look at something or approach something in a slightly different way to how they had previously, and so on that basis it's probably useful...you need to spend the time because which 2 little snippets are useful and which 90% is useless will be different for every individual!


At the risk of being inflammatory, the unconscious Bias courses (yes, multiple...due to a recent job change) that I have been on though, were not particularly broad in their focus - its was all racism and sexism focussed - where the white man was always the bad guy in each role play. It came across as more agenda driven than actually wanting to be helpful. That's just my impression, and not to say all courses are similar of course (no pun intended)

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I dont mind the Welsh, but I cant understand a

> word they say after the rugby


As Trump retweeted today when Biden wins the USA will become like Wales


Cymru am Byth


https://nation.cymru/news/bidens-us-will-be-like-wales-donald-trump-retweets-criticism-of-welsh-government-lockdowns/

TheCat once again ignores the crux of my post and tries to find an issue when there isn't one. If someone finds it difficult to understand a person's accent and says so, fine. If they then throw in some comment about their origin, then that may be an indicator of something else, unconscious or otherwise. And no, not all Brits do sound the same. I have been to some parts of Scotland and struggled to understand the slang spoken.
I thought if you are white and therefore privileged you cannot have an opinion and are racist anyway as being white and privileged is your identity group.....and it makes you racist ....that's what seems to be the trend these days...what is going on now in 'society' puts Goebbels to shame imo

Is there not a reasonable middle ground at all? I'm quite sure that most people know very well why uncle's claims above get traction. And I'm also quite sure that most people know that interpreting them in the extreme fashion is also unreasonable.....


This 'battle' does seem a bit stupid.....I don't like how Blm do their thing (as I've said elsewhere on this forum), but surely even my harshest critics on here would agree I'm no rascist (don't answer that!:)). And even despite our arguments, sometime blah blah is idealistic, but I don't think is a loony lefty.....


Perhaps we need an 'EDF live'.....a live debate to raise money for underfunded local right-wing causes....jokes:)......centrist causes......

poor poor widduw victim or what ?!



uncleglen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought if you are white and therefore

> privileged you cannot have an opinion and are

> racist anyway as being white and privileged is

> your identity group.....and it makes you racist

> ....that's what seems to be the trend these

> days...what is going on now in 'society' puts

> Goebbels to shame imo

Have just received some communication from mini-Cat's school regarding unconscious bias and antiracsism training/teaching which came through last week - I of course want kids to be sensitive to these issues, but am nervous about what I see as the divisive manner in which some concepts are often taught....I'm guessing and hoping that at young schoolkids level it's much less about 'white privilege' and more about 'respecting everyone'....


Which does lead me to a genuine question - how can one simultaneously believe unconscious bias is a problem, while also espousing the concept of white privilege? Doesn't use of the latter term support continuation of the former (to the detriment of people of all colours)?

Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> One would be pushed to describe Matthew Goodwin as

> an expert in anything


I beg to differ- he seems to have hit several nails on the head here

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/08/national-populism-immigration-financial-crisis-globalisation

He is exactly the kind of academic who would have gotten behind teh rise of poulism in German back in the 30s, using all of teh same tired argumenst. "can't trust politicians so go for this guy!"


Instead of viewing populism as a problem, he's a supporter of it regardless of outcome


Here is news - all of the reasons he gives in that article (and he has written many - oh so many along the same lines) are felt my most people - including liberals!. the difference is most non-racist people don't look at the likes of Trump and think "well clearly he is the person to sort out such problems"


They see a racist snake-oil peddler - because that's what he is


And the people who refuse to see that? Well you can call them many things - but being on the right side of history isn't one of them

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