Pushchairs on buses

[NorthcrossJo]

On quite a few occasions recently I've been told by bus drivers that I can't get on the bus (in wheelchair) because there are people with pushchairs/prams who won't move out of the space. I was under the impression that wheelchairs took priority, but can appreciate that it's also difficult for people with young children, especially if said children are very little, or if they also have shopping.

What's your view on this?

[simonethebeaver]

I have both a child in a wheelchair and a child in a pushchair. As I am aware of the much greater challenges getting around faced by those in wheelchairs, I would immediately either fold my pushchair or get off the bus if folding wasn't possible to make room for a wheelchair. Bus notices state that wheelchairs have priority so the driver should be enforcing that. I suspect some of them just can't be arsed with the flight delay caused by a wheelchair user getting on and off the bus. My sympathies. Perhaps if you use the same routes all the time, a letter to the operating company, cced to TFL, is in order.

[Lochie]

Over the summer I was on a bus from Liverpool street to Denmark hill with my baby in a sling. A woman got on with a toddler in a pram. About 3 stops later a mother pushing her teenage daughter in a wheelchair tried to get on but the lady with pram refused to fold the pram saying it was 'unfair' because she was there first and she didn't want to wake her sleeping baby.

I think the whole bus was stunned and there was a lot of tutting and sighing at this woman. The driver indeed reminded her that wheelchairs have priority and turned the engine off until she folded her pram. She never did fold her pram, others just interviened to make way for both buggy and wheelchair. But the consensus from all passengers was total disgust at such a selfish act from the pram owner.

I would check with TFL what the policy is because from what I remember the are signs on all buses saying wheelchairs have priority and if the drivers aren't enforcing this they probably aren't doing their job properly. I wish you the best of luck. I've recently started using the tube a lot with a pram and have found it terrible how inaccessible they are for pram and wheelchair users (Brixton seems to be the only station with a lift)....it's a bit of an embarrassment London being the major city that it is (but that is a whole other topic!)

[eco79]

As a pram pusher, it's my opinion that you have priority. And every time this situation has arisen I have got off the bus without being requested. Although I can tell from the grateful reactions this obviously is not usually the experience of wheelchair users.

[NorthcrossJo]

Gosh, Simonethebeaver, I can't imagine trying to get anywhere with a wheelchair AND a pushchair - you must be superwoman!

Lochie, I've seen similar reactions from people (shock, anger, disapproval), and have been quite stunned by the kindness of strangers at times. Last week, when I'd been refused by one bus driver, a lovely man came over and shared his umbrella with me until the next bus came. I couldn't count the number of times people have checked that I'm ok, have relayed messages to bus drivers when I need the ramp to be lowered, and have generally been personable and kind.

I agree that there's still work to do, in order to make London more friendly to wheelchairs, people with mobility difficulties, and pushchairs, but it's improved a great deal in the 13 years that I've lived in the city. The Jubilee line is pretty good for lifts, all bus routes have been accessible since 2004, and there are visible improvements every year. It's an old city, with an old transport network, but I do believe that the will is there - people do want to make it a friendlier and more accessible city.

My main reason for starting this thread wasn't to complain about the use of the pushchair/pram/luggage/wheelchair space on the buses, but to get some alternative views on the subject. I use a wheelchair, so of course I'm going to want to have priority access on the buses, but I rarely travel with luggage, and have never travelled alone with small children or a pushchair/pram.

Should there be discretion over the use of the space? If someone is prepared to fold a pushchair or move, that's great, but if they have a poorly or sleeping child, I wouldn't want them to feel that they were forced to move. Does that sound fair?

[KatDew]

I think that there should be some discretion involved from both sides. It can be very difficult for a mother with a very young baby to fold up the buggy on the bus. Do we suggest she just puts the baby on the floor whilst she does this? At the same time I have a set of twins and whilst now they are ok as two year olds, as younger babies there is no way I could have folded up their pram and safely managed the pair of them on a moving bus.

If we were all waiting at the bus stop I can understand letting a wheel chair user go first. Anyone who uses buses with a pram knows you have to wait your turn. Frequently 2/3 buses will go past and you can't get on as there is already people with prams using the spaces, especially if you are waiting for space for a twin buggy!

However if having waited for my turn, found a bus with space for my pram and as stated being in a situation where I couldn't fold my pram I think I would be quite upset to be made to get off the bus at that point. I understand disability discrimination but surely to evict someone when they also have no alternative is also discriminatory?

[Lochie]

I think really it does depend a little. My first response was 'all wheelchair users should have priority', as ultimately you can collapse a buggy down but not a wheelchair. But then I guess there are mums/dads/carers with twins etc and those prams are not easy to collapse on a bus, if at all. With my first child I used to get on a bus with my oversized ridiculous bugaboo pram which is not collapsible without a lot of effort and time. With second child I only take a baby sling or cheap and light foldable buggy that takes up little space. I can understand a parent with double buggy and one sleeping baby and screaming toddler and lots of bags not wanting to fold their pram down.

It is not cut and dried. I think if every passenger had the same set of moral standards everyone would help each other out but sadly I've seen more selfish acts on the bus over what people deem to be 'their seat/space' than anywhere else! So I don't think things will change and I don't think there is an answer to your question :-(

[intexasatthe moment]

I was under the impression that wheelchair users should have priority . ( though I understand that sometimes logistics of twins may make this impossible )

The space is provided primarily for them .

I believe that considerable campaigning was involved to obtain wheelchair spaces and accesibilty on buses .

[LondonMix]

Agree, I always thought wheelchairs had priority. Twins are a special case. However, when you think of the inconvenience of public transport during the baby years and then imagine that many wheelchair users will contend with that inconvenience for life, I can't see how we can't justify giving them priority in most circumstances.

[crystal7]

I assumed wheelchairs had priority over buggies, am quite shocked by Lochie's experience. Londonmix is spot on I think.

[civilservant]

Wheelchairs have (and deserve) priority in London. See TfL website http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround

"All London bus routes are served by low-floor, wheelchair-accessible, buses which means that they are designed to provide easy access and onboard space, specifically for wheelchair users and buggies.

If you get on a bus with a buggy, and the wheelchair space is available, please feel free to use it. If a wheelchair user wants to board the bus, however, you might be asked to fold your buggy up or move it to another part of the bus. Wheelchair users have priority over anyone else in this area because it is the only place for wheelchairs to travel safely.

Please remember that, for safety reasons and general passenger comfort, buggies cannot be left in the middle of the bus.

As a buggy user, you should be able to board any low-floor bus, unless the driver thinks that it is too crowded for you to travel safely. You will only be refused entry to board a bus if it is really necessary.

Single buggies should be wheeled through the doors at the front of the bus towards the wheelchair area. If a single buggy is too wide to fit through the doors and down the aisle, it must be folded up.

If you are using a double buggy, it's fine for you to get on the bus at the back exit doors, but please check with the driver first."

[eva_ben]

Yes, it feels right that wheelchair users should have priority and it is of course the way it is. I was quite annoyed with a bus driver who let me on the bus with a pushchair two days ago when there was already a wheelchair user there, and there wasn't room for us both. I had looked over to the spot before boarding but as the bus was busy I hadn't seen the wheelchair user (and maybe I was more on the look out for other pushchairs - handles not heads). It would have been much easier for me to wait for another bus if I'd known. I'd just come back from a day in Brighton so the pushchair was full of bags and I was knackered, so folding was a hassle and getting off wasn't an option as the driver immediately sped on. Bus drivers need to be much clearer on this - as I say, he shouldn't have let me on or he should have told me I'd need to fold. In the event the wheelchair user was super nice and I didn't get off at the next stop as she was getting off at the one after and there was, just, a way for us to muddle through - but it was a situation that could have been easily avoided.

[zeban]

100% wheelchairs should have priority. I don't think you should use a non collapsable buggy if using the bus or if you do then be prepared to get off for a wheelchair. parents need to remember that these area were created for wheelchairs and not for them in mind, and that before this space you just had to fold your buggy no matter what and everyone coped then. It's useful no doubt and must be a god send for double buggies with twins but I don't think the space should really be taken for granted.

[oimissus]

wheelchairs have priority - the space can ONLY be used by pushchairs if it is not needed by a wheelchair user. If my child was sleeping or I had loads of stuff under it and couldn't fold it, I would get off and wait for another bus. That's a bit of inconvenience for me on one day. Wheelchair users have this every second of every day of their lives. Appalling that anyone would think otherwise.

(Not on the bus but the tube - during the paralympics I saw 3 people with buggies use the lift at London Bridge, stopping a man in a wheelchair from using it. Clearly, even at that time it did not occur to them to give him priority. Shocking.)

[Bouncy]

It's my understanding also that wheelchair-users have priority on buses and on trains, and I would always move for a wheelchair-user (in the sleeping baby situation, that would mean getting off the bus). I'm surprised that people don't - I thought it was commonly understood (and there are big signs!!)

NorthcrossJo - I have massive respect for your positivity and for your active use of the public transport system. Since becoming a buggy-pusher, I've been routinely astounded and disgusted by how inaccessible so much of London remains, and have wondered many times how on earth wheelchair-users negotiate travel. I'm glad to hear that you think things are improving - let's hope that they continue that way.

Your comments have also made me think back to when I worked with children in a SEN school, some of whom were wheelchair-users. We used to get them taxis when we went on trips because using the bus was so difficult (or we perceived it as so). Now I'm wondering if that wasn't actually a really bad approach and ultimately more for the convenience of the staff than the children, who may have been better served by encouragement to asert their rights and negotiate rather than avoid the system. Hmmm, wish I'd thought about that more at the time when I worked there and could do something about it!

[LondonMix]

Had a fresh look at the signs this morning during my commute and its clear that wheelchairs get full priority and that if the bus becomes crowded buggies should be folded to create more standing room (even if there is no wheelchair user). The corollary to this is that parents who need to hold children on their laps get priority seating. I agree with Zeban that you don't get a seat as a parent just because you have a child but only if the child is out of the buggy and needs to sit on your lap.

[simonethebeaver]

Hi Jo. Not superwoman! It's sling plus wheelchair if one of us has to go somewhere alone. In fact, MrBeaver is a fairly frequent sight on Saturdays in ED and tends to get lots of admiration!

I think the major difference is that a pushchair is optional. A very good option when you have a sleeping, tired or tiny baby, but optional. A pushchair can be carried down steps. A pushchair can be left at home in favour of a sling. Fundamentally often a child can be left at home entirely if the journey in a pushchair is too awful. None of those apply to a wheelchair. The inaccessibility of London is quite depressing but it's also not considered at all by most. A good friend of mine invited us to the panto this year: she'd booked a block of balcony tickets and was having a party afterwards in her third floor walk up flat. All completely normal and reasonable things but she hadn't given a thought to the fact that my stepdaughter couldn't access any of it.

[Otta]

.

[Otta]

There is a bloody sign on most buses saying that wheelchairs take priority, but half the drivers either don't know their own company rules, or they don't want to risk a tongue lashing by asking a pram pusher to get off.

Some people are so ignorant, I've gotten off a bus before when I was there first, because other buggy pushers just refuse. These people are absolute scum in my opinion, and I feel sorry for the kids in those buggies because they have selfish parents like that.

[oimissus]

so true. Mr Oi's oldest friend has been a wheelchair user for around 10 years now, and we always have to factor in accessibilty and loos when deciding on venues for birthdays etc - we even needed to ensure the church we had Miss Oi christened in (he's her godfather) was accessible - things that would never have crossed our minds before.

You simply can't equate the difficulties of getting around town with a buggy, even a double buggy, to those experienced by wheelchair users. Those spaces have been campaigned for and won by disability groups and charities - please, never assume they are there for you and your buggy, or that you have any 'right' to use them. They are a huge bonus, of course, and make getting out and about with small children so much easier - but they are not 'ours'. Think of the effort a wheelchair user may have to make simply to get to the bus top (my friend, for example, probably weighs in the region of 12 stone - imagine pushing that weight, plus your chair, up a hill)- to be denied access to the bus after that, because an entitled parent won't move their pushchair, is dreadful.

I actually think this is a very black-and-white situation.

[LondonMix]

I agree Otta. That kind of parental entitlement complex is an example of some of the worst kind of anti-social behaviour and should be treated as such.

[Chillaxed]

You don't need to fold down your buggy if a wheelchair user boards if it's too much of a hassle. You can get off and wait for another bus (presuming the driver gives you a chance to do this). By the by, I really do think 99% of parents and people understand this, and these 'entitled parents' are rare beasts.

[Otta]

Agreed, but their behaviour is enough to be noticed.