Dog attack in Dulwich Park this afternoon

[first mate]

73jem,

I think it is entirely reasonable and I don't really understand why people don't put their dogs on a lead in these areas. I also take your point about toddlers not being restricted to just one fenced area. We must all try to be more aware and considerate of the needs of others.

[LadyDeliah]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm sure that lady deliah was merely pointing out

> that the 'rules and regulations' referred to are

> actually requests and are currently not

> enforceable.

Yes, I thought the neutral way I expressed the point would have made it clear that I was trying to inform some of the posters who didn't understand, what the facts actually were in relation to the signs.

[Pengui]

I'm sorry to hear about Tilly -- how terrifying! I'm glad she is recovering!

I am also very interested in this discussion for the reasons 73jem cited. My 2 year old daughter was lunged upon and snapped at by a large shaggy dog left off the lead outside the cafe in Dulwich Park while the owner sat inside with her friends. I made the foolish assumption that the dog was friendly because it was off the lead and sitting nicely by the cafe windows in sight of its owner (I'll NEVER make that mistake again!). Several other children attempted to approach the dog after my daughter was knocked down, so I stood by to warn them. The owner, who witnessed some of this through the window, wagged her finger at her dog and mouthed "no" -- but she never bothered to get up or come out of the cafe, and she only shrugged when I glared at her.

Clearly this woman felt she could trust her dog to behave, but it was obvious that she couldn't (same goes for the owners of Tilly's attackers). As the previous owner of three well behaved dogs, I always kept them on the lead in public areas out of consideration for others because dogs make some people nervous. I loved my dogs, but people come first, including the owners of other dogs who worry about the safety of their pets. And who can really guarantee that a dog's instinct to behave as it might in the wild won't occasionally override its training? Keeping my dogs on the lead in public areas never had a negative impact on their health or experiences outdoors as they always had plenty of time to run free in designated areas (this was not in Dulwich Park, so I admittedly do not know the designated areas).

I am now even more vigilant about my children when free roaming dogs are about in Dulwich Park, but since we can't always trust dog owners to be good judges of their dogs it seems to me that lead rules should not be optional.

[Frenchpolisher]

My first proper post on the forum but this is an area I feel strongly about.

I actually like dogs and have nothing against their owners on the whole. However I do feel that as with anyone that has a passion about something it can be easy to get the blinkers on when sticking up for what you believe.

As someone else has said, there are certain areas of the park in which dogs are supposed to be kept on a lead and this is regularly flouted. Whether this is enforceable by law is one point but surely out of respect for other park users this is something that should be adhered to? I recently met the Park safety officer and he told me that he had approached several dog walkers flouting these rules over the course of a week. Many dog walkers gave him short shrift and ignored his pleas. In fact he said that often it would be the same people on consecutive days. He also said that his actions had caused more complaints to the office than the park management could remember to some time.

I use the park for both jogging and birdwatching. When jogging I keep to the bridle way around the main road. I have almost been knocked over by medium to large dogs on three occasions, once last week while jogging and twice in the early spring while birdwatching. Having a dog off the lead is fine in the correct areas, if you can be sure it is controllable. Unfortunately many I see are sent into some sort of frenzy chasing squirrels with owners seemingly oblivious to how madly they are running around. One dog slammed into my legs so hard I nearly went over. I'd stopped and was aware it was coming, otherwise I would have done. Had it been my five year old daughter it hit I hate to think what the outcome would have been. It is only a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt by one of these dogs.

[the-e-dealer]

Dog hater!

[Frenchpolisher]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dog hater!

Troll?

[Frenchpolisher]

Personally I wouldn't own a dog living in a city or large town. Probably more the idea of picking up poop which puts off than anything else but also down to whether I'd be able to give it enough exercise. If I lived in the country I'd probably have one if I could afford it.

I guess where I'm coming from is we all need to look at how our actions in the park effect others and have more respect for each other. As someone else said bikes can also be a huge problem, especially those banana bikes that are hired out. I stopped taking my kids to Dulwich park when they were small in fear that one would be knocked down by a kid on a bike coming flying out of the bushes.

This includes some dog owners that are oblivious to the damage that otherwise docile pets could cause. I'm not having a pop at anyone here. I think the park management could be more proactive in this but it would be hard to police. Maybe if dogs were only allowed off leads on the main playing field area where there is less likelihood of them hurting someone. Maybe it's putting in more dog free areas.

[Pugwash]

If a dog is off the lead it is likely that owners will not spot it squatting and therefore do not pick up the dog poo.

As a former dog owner, the 'cricket or big field' ( the right sided field coming in from Court Lane) was always a designated dog area as the bowling green field and playgound field was nmainly occupied by family groups. I am surprised about the number of owners who still do not scoop up their dogs poo. Perhaps the way to have dogs on lead only areas is to 'catch out' non pooper scoopers with off lead dogs and report them, if this is the only legitimate means of curtailing this practice.

What about the notices seen on beaches which do not allow dogs on them between April and September ? Local By lawss?

[uncleglen]

I feel sorry for people with young children in the park where people let their dogs off the lead and then stand around chatting to each other oblivious of what their precious pooch is getting up to. I agree with Frenchpolisher, the city with its limited open spaces is no place for a dog, or even a cat as gardens get fouled and birds are killed.

People could keep other types of pet in a cage and that way they are totally responsible for everything it gets up to.

[LadyDeliah]

Please let this and all the other threads on the same subject just die! How many times do people have to keep going on about the same subjects?

[Frenchpolisher]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Please let this and all the other threads on the

> same subject just die! How many times do people

> have to keep going on about the same subjects?

It's obviously something which a lot of people feels strongly about, on all sides. There will always be new members commenting on things that those of you who have been members for longer will feel have been done to death.

I am a member of many different forums and I always try to adhere to the rule that if I don't want to keep going over old ground I'll give those threads a wide berth.

[LadyDeliah]

Didn't mean to have a go, sorry, but it feels that any post involving a dog/cyclist/child inevitably ends with the same people trotting out the same stuff and it starts to feel like Groundhog Day!

[BecsBex]

This is why I was reluctant to post my original message - I knew it would become a big whinge by all the people who want dogs to be on leads the whole time. FYI, when my dog is off the lead I am still aware of her doing a poop and then I clear it up. In my experience at Dulwich Park, most other dog owners are the same. It's really unfair to tarnish all dogs/owners with the same brush. As tiddles said, they key is consideration. I realise it's a dying concept...

[Frenchpolisher]

I don't necessarily want dogs on leads the whole time but I do think those owners who know their dogs may be acting dangerously by chasing squirrels like butters should put them back on. Those dogs are not under control. Unfortunately from my experience there are as many out of control dogs in Dulwich park than those under control.

[first mate]

Frenchpolisher,

Just to balance your point, joggers can also be very intent on doing THEIR run- often plugged into their phones and presumably in some kind of alpha state. With some joggers there seems to be an expectation that you get out of their way so they do not deviate from whatever route they have in mind- it's a matter of perspective I suppose.

I do think that if owners could keep dogs on lead along walkways, enclosed gardens and around the cafe we would see a great difference, but other park users need to be more considerate too. I'm thinking about the dog that was sitting outside the cafe offlead. I completely agree that it should have been on lead and tied, but this would not have changed the fact that it did not feel comfortable being approached by children - this does not necessarily mean it is vicious or aggressive. Many children today can treat dogs and other animals like toys and view them as readily accessible for their entertainment at all times.

The dog owner was also at fault though because if her dog is stressed enough by people/children approaching it to lunge and snap (the dog's way of saying you are making me nervous) the owner should not be leaving it outside on its own.

[Frenchpolisher]

Quite right mate. As I said in an earlier post its about respect for other park users. Having just started running you have nothing to fear from me. I'm not fast or fit enough!

[Pengui]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I do think that if owners could keep dogs on lead

> along walkways, enclosed gardens and around the

> cafe we would see a great difference, but other

> park users need to be more considerate too. I'm

> thinking about the dog that was sitting outside

> the cafe offlead. I completely agree that it

> should have been on lead and tied, but this would

> not have changed the fact that it did not feel

> comfortable being approached by children - this

> does not necessarily mean it is vicious or

> aggressive. Many children today can treat dogs and

> other animals like toys and view them as readily

> accessible for their entertainment at all times.

>

> The dog owner was also at fault though because if

> her dog is stressed enough by people/children

> approaching it to lunge and snap (the dog's way of

> saying you are making me nervous) the owner should

> not be leaving it outside on its own.

I couldn't agree with this more, First Mate. Your solution is easy, simple and would work if people chose to comply with lead signs (and respect dogs in designated areas). And I do take full responsibility for allowing my daughter to approach the dog outside the cafe. My daughter is small and gentle, and she only managed to say "hi doggie" before she was knocked on her back, but in retrospect I should never have assumed that a dog is approachable just because its owner trusts it enough to leave it offlead and alone in a public space. Clearly the dog was stressed.

[AbDabs]

The dog may not have been stressed in the slightest, just guarding what it perceived to be its territory, for reasons that only it would know. My brother had the softest mutt ever (lab/spaniel/god knows what mix) but when he had his first child the 'cute dog' suddenly started guarding everything. Natural instinct I guess. Absolutely fine if you were formally introduced - would immediately revert to cute dog mode, but any unknown stranger, however small, would send the hackles up. There must have been a first time before my brother realised what was happening. I'd never approach an unknown dog without checking with the owner first but then I grew up in the country where a lot of dogs were working animals and not what you'd consider pets.

I'd hate to see all dogs on leads at all times; although it might stop the rare occasion of a good dog turning bad, the majority of dangerous animals are that way because they are mistreated, and those sorts of owners don't take any notice of legal restrictions.

[first mate]

Guarding behaviour is initiated by stress- the fear/anxiety of losing a resource or of incusrsion onto territory by strangers. Dogs with in a state of high arousal put their hackles up- this indicates stress. So, as you suggest the dog for whatever reason felt under threat and reacted accordingly to warn the threat off- this is also known as guarding.

[littlelau]

.

[littlelau]

To all the ignorant people who like to tar all Staffordshire Bull Terriers with the same brush as vicious dogs should perhaps educate themselves about the breed which is know and referred to as the nanny dog because they have such a caring nature. Also a lot of people do not even know what a true staffie looks like and see a cross breed and say oh it was a staff when in fact it wasn't a staffie at all it was some kind of cross breed or another breed of dog all together!!

I have a staffie he is a pure bred full pedigree stafford his dad is a crufts champion and i got him from a Kennel Club registered breeder and saw both his mum & dad.

He is the most soft loving little dog you could ever meet a will always greet you with a sock he has pinched! I take him into my local shops all the shop keepers know him and let him sit on the mat inside the shop whilst i get my shopping.

Last year he was attacked by a pit bull cross the dog bit him on the back of his neck an picked him up off the floor my dog didn't even try to defend himself or fight back he was totally helpless this also resulted in my fiance loosing half his ring finger on his left hand as he tried to free our dog the attacking dog turned on him biting his finger clean off the owners of the dog did nothing and did not try to get there dog off and when my fiance was saying "your dogs bitten my finger off" they still did nothing he managed to pick our dog up (who is by no means light) and run to the car for safety!! My dog had a deep open puncture wound on his neck about the size of a 2 pence piece also he was bitten on his leg none of the wounds could be stitched as it could lead to an infection as a dogs mouth has so much bacteria in it so i had to flush his wounds twice a day with syringe and solution to keep i clean also i had to keep pulling the wound open to flush it out under vets orders which as you can imagine caused him more unwanted pain he also had antibiotics. The owners of the the dogs that attacked mine disappeared with no regard as to what had happened.

This time the attack wasn't down to a staffie!!! A staffie my staffie was the victim! But it wasn't the dogs fault either its down to the owners you get a puppy/dog its like a baby it only learns what you teach it so its down to the owners being responsible, teaching and training there dog in the correct manner.

I am so fed up with walking with my little pooch and having people screaming at me "put your dog on a lead" "he vicious" "he's one of those dogs that rip your throat out" I was in Dulwich Park with my little brother who is Downs Syndrome and my little sisters in the summer this year we had hired some bikes out my dog was running along with the children when a woman started screaming "put your dog on a lead he's dangerous and if you wont put him on a lead he should be muzzled" I was so shocked!!! But later on wait for it..... Her Labrador in fact went for my dog bit at him and was snarling and growling right near my brother and sisters who were very scared! With that i put my dog on the lead and i'd had enough in a very loud voice said "Please everyone take note i have just been told to put my staffie on a lead or muzzle him by this lady as you can all see it is in fact her dog that is aggressive and territorial trying to attack my dog maybe she should in fact muzzle her own dog and herself" at which point to my surprise people actually cheered, she then dragged her dog off red faced with not a word more to say!!!

I hope i have given you some food for thought and please let me know what you think?! :)

BecsBex i hope Tilly is ok and enjoying her walks again thank you for your post.

Aquarius Moon comments like this: >when you sadly hear about poor dogs/cats attacked or killed,

it is nearly always done by a staff or other bull breed.

You should learn more about the breed and hopefully you'll read my post and think before you post and blame staffies & bull dog breeds for nearly all animal attacks & deaths!!

[first mate]

Littlelau,

I would agree that nearly all pure staffs are brilliant with people. Some staffs are not so great with dogs and that goes back to the fact that they were bred to be fighting dogs, amongst other things. That is not to say that you cannot teach a puppy staff how to behave with other dogs, as yours does. As you say, it is down to the owner to put in the time, do the training and know the breed they have.

If your dog is on a lead when you are out I see no reason why people should demand you muzzle him. The problem is when people have their dogs offlead- this makes life very difficult for people who dislike or are afraid of dogs, some people have been badly frightened or bitten by a dog as children and it is obvious that they are going to be more scared of a dog offlead than on a lead. The type of dog you are most likely to see offlead on the streets is a bull breed type. I saw a huge intact mastiff male the other day being walked offlead near ED station...why? It would be so easy to put a lead on.

The situation in the park with the retriever may have been sparked by the other woman panicking and yelling so her own dog thought yours was a threat.

It is hard for people who own a well brought up staffie. But congratulations, it sounds like you have a lovley dog.

[uncleglen]

IMHO Staffies are the ugliest dogs in the world-including that nearly bald scrawny dog that pops up in the media now and again.

[littlelau]

Hi First mate

Thanks for your comment,

I don't think a dog should necessarily be kept on a lead if it is obedient, well trained and not aggressive as i sometimes walk my dog off the lead but he walks to heal, sticks by me and is very obedient however if i see a dog in the distance i will put my dog on a lead for mine and my dogs safety because i cannot predict what the other dog may do and 9 times out of 10 its fine and as they get closer i ask the owner if here dog is social and ok with other dogs most times its a yes so then have a little play together! :) But when there are areas where your dog must be on a lead i always abide by those rules and keep him on a lead where as other people do not respect this rule!

The size of a dog doesn't faze me as any dog big or small is capable of biting and injuring someone but a bigger dog would be worse than a smaller dog. My friend has a Rottweiler that goes to visit sick children as a therapy dog! Now that is a big dog that would be quite daunting to some adults and children yet he is out there helping sick children everyday despite his size.

As for my situation in the park sorry the lady shouted and then went on ahead of us but as we caught up a bit it was then her dog went for mine and if her dog is protective or views dogs or others as a threat then this dog should be kept on a lead as this dog is unpredictable and aggressive in my opinion.

But in the end it is down to the owners people have dogs breeds such as Rottweilers, Staffies, Bull Mastiffs, Dobermans, Alsatians And many others and the purpose of the dog is as a statement to scare people or to fight and be aggressive which is wrong and thats when a dog has ended up in the wrong hands! Its disgusting and disgraceful the dogs is the one who suffers in the end not the owners.

I met a lady in Dulwich Village the other day with her two Staffies which she had re-homed from Battersea Dogs Home and she also lives in the village she told me of an incident where she had gone to Brockwell Park to walk her dogs and a group of guys approached her with a what she described as Staffie and Staffie cross dogs and asked her if she wanted to fight her dogs now these are the type of people that give dogs a bad name & train their dogs to do all the wrong things and that is why you should have to have a dog licence also these are the type of people who are breeding these dogs and cross breeding them and selling puppies for as little as ?20 to a maximum of ?100 to earn a quick buck and think sometimes there is up to 8 pups in a litter they didn't ask to be born.

Also i went to Crufts this year and was speaking to a lot of the Stafford breeders and they were telling me that they would NOT be breeding for at least 3/4 years as there are so many staff and staffie crosses out there and in the dogs home that they do not wish to be responsible for anymore pups being born and unwanted or used for fighting!

The breeder i got my dog from is very reputable and does not let any pup go lightly he thoroughly vets you and keeps in contact with all the owners & dogs and he very rarely lets the bitch pups go incase someones intention is just to breed them.

And to finish:

Staffordshire Bull Terriers Although individual differences in personality exist, common traits exist throughout the Staffords. Due to its breeding, and history, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is known for its character of intelligence, fearlessness and loyalty. This, coupled with its affection for its friends, its off-duty quietness and trustworthy stability, make it a foremost all-purpose dog. It has been said that "No breed is more loving with its family".

The breed is naturally muscular and may appear intimidating; however, because of their natural fondness for people, most Staffords are temperamentally ILL-SUITED for guard or attack-dog training. Staffordshire Bull Terrier puppies are very easy to house train.

[littlelau]

@uncle glen each to their own but what a pointless spiteful comment to make if you have nothing worthwhile to say! Say nothing at all.